THE INTREPIDS & THE INSTITUTION WEBPAGE

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 Post subject: MrX's guide to Dark/Regen Scrappers: the uber-scrapper quest
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:20 pm 
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Hi guys,

Let's get some arguments going.

Is the dark/regen the best, toughest, highest DPS scrapper combo in the game? I think it might be.

EDIT: Here's the planned build now see comments here <- linky

01) --> Shadow Punch==> Acc(1) Acc(3) Dmg(5) Dmg(7) Dmg(15)
01) --> Fast Healing==> Heal(1) Heal(46) Heal(46)
02) --> Smite==> Acc(2) Acc(3) Dmg(5) Dmg(7) Dmg(13) Rechg(19)
04) --> Quick Recovery==> EndMod(4) EndMod(15) EndMod(19)
06) --> Touch of Fear==> Acc(6) Acc(11) TH_DeBuf(40) TH_DeBuf(40) Rechg(42)
08 ) --> Shadow Maul==> Acc(8 ) Acc(9) Dmg(9) Dmg(11) Dmg(13) Rechg(17)
10) --> Dull Pain==> Heal(10) Heal(23) Heal(25) Rechg(31) Rechg(36) Rechg(43)
12) --> Hasten==> Rechg(12) Rechg(21) Rechg(23)
14) --> Super Speed==> EndRdx(14)
16) --> Integration==> Heal(16) Heal(17) Heal(21)
18 ) --> Hurdle==> Jump(18 )
20) --> Health==> Heal(20)
22) --> Stamina==> EndMod(22) EndMod(42) EndMod(46)
24) --> Siphon Life==> Acc(24) Acc(25) Heal(29) Heal(29) Dmg(31) Rechg(34)
26) --> Soul Drain==> Acc(26) Acc(27) Rechg(27) Rechg(37) TH_Buf(50) TH_Buf(50)
28 ) --> Instant Healing==> Heal(28 ) Heal(31) Heal(37) Rechg(37) Rechg(45)
30) --> Boxing==> Acc(30)
32) --> Midnight Grasp==> Acc(32) Acc(33) Dmg(33) Dmg(33) Dmg(34) Rechg(34)
35) --> Tough==> DmgRes(35) DmgRes(36) DmgRes(36)
38 ) --> Dark Consumption==> Acc(38 ) Acc(39) Rechg(39) Rechg(39) EndMod(40) EndMod(43)
41) --> Focused Accuracy==> TH_Buf(41) TH_Buf(42) TH_Buf(43)
44) --> Weave==> DefBuf(44) DefBuf(45) DefBuf(45)
47) --> Moment Of Glory==> DmgRes(47) DmgRes(48 ) DmgRes(48 ) DefBuf(48 )
49) --> Resilience==> DmgRes(49) DmgRes(50)

And here's the background to the creation of this toon:

With my latest toon IceDrain heading for lvl 40, on villains, I was once more overcome with a desire to fill my last two available slots (on my second account) with two more interesting toons.

And as I also have also started many controlling/defending type toons recently and seen The Messenger hit 50 I was once more looking for something different and fancied rolling another regen - as the most fun I've had developing any of my toons has been with my other two regens (the messenger and shadowbaby). Both these toons are very very hard to kill off once they hit mid 30s upwards but both have flaws (shadowbaby more than the messenger). So...

What's the goal/point of creating another regen?
Well I wanted to address the slight imbalance that regen's have in the defence/resistance areas (by definition of course) compared to other scrappers/stalkers. I've experimented with running tough/weave on The Messenger but despite the enourmous end recovery rate given to a regen (once you have Quick Recovery and Stamina up - assuming you do take Stamina) then you still don't have enough end recovery in an intense and prolonged fire-fight to maintain all your toggles + tough and weave - not while maintaing maximum damage rates at least.

So what attracted to me the dark/regen concept, something I hadn't considered before (for some reason) was the extra 1 on 1 damage mitigation that dark powers add to every blow landed. Unique among the the other scrapper sets Dark Melee can throw out all kinds of extra problems in 1 on 1 combat (solo or in PVP). My dark/stone brute (dark-X) is also one hell of a fun toon to play too and through him I can see the potential of adding dark combat to the regen set.

I've read a coupl eof guides online too and the following, although out of date, is very well put-together:

>>> http://coh.coldfront.net/index.php/content/view/461/32/

Although the slotting advise is miles out now, all the principles are still good and there's some interesting observations I haven't seen before.

1) That MoG doesn't have defence or resistance to Psionic powers (which I knew) or any other AUTO-HITTING powers either!?! Makes sense but I hadn't thought/seen that before. The author mentions Caltrops as an example (which I have on The Messenger) but I can't help wandering about my regen nemesis toons, ice/kinetics and ice/rads: these toons will slow the hell out of a regen and stop him re-applying dull pain, instant healing and so on before moving in for the kill. BUT both Ice Storm and Blizzard also seem to be some kind of variation of auto-hitting (in that their tohit level appears to be 100%, in PVE, at least). Anyone know much more about this?

2) The author was also saying that he felt Dark Consumption wasn't worth it (as a regen has plenty of end recovery). Whereas what I'm planning for this dark/regen (Unsung) is that the use of that power will enable to run all toggles (Tough and Weave included) and I'll use Dark C to cover the dips - so creating the dark/regen uber toon that I have in mind.

I did check the forum fairly carefully for any other dark/regens in the SG but couldn't see any. I plan to use this thread to map out a good guide this combo but if any of you guys have any direct experience of this combo or want to take up the dark/regen uber toon challenge then would love to see the arguments. We haven't had a good one along these lines for months now.

NB, in case I'm not being clear: Unsung at 50 will be able to wipe the floor for my broadsword/regen and my claws/regen and with Spine Blastor (spines/regen) and Ebon Hawk (claws/regen).

Let the debate begin. :D

I'll be posting up sample build and other details later in the week.

_________________
[b]MrX Heroes: MrX Lvl 50 warshade. | MIND0R Lvl 50 mind/emp troll | The-Messenger Lvl 50 BS/regen scrap | Covert Lvl 42 kin/pys def | .Relic Lvl 42 illu/emp troll | Havoc Lvl 42 kin/elec def | The-Elemental Lvl 39 storm/dark def | Unsung Lvl 38 dark/regen scrap | WRENCH Lvl 34 shield/wrench tank | The Watcher Lvl 15 earth/rad troller | Villains: FR0STBITE Lvl 50 ice/kin corr | Dark-X Lvl 47 dark/stone brute | N'Ice Lvl 42 ice/rad corr | Vortex Lvl 42 robotics/storm MM | ShadowBaby Lvl 41 claws/regen stalk | The Cloak Lvl 41 energy/energy stalk | Thang Lvl 39 robotics/FF MM | IonFist Lvl 34 energy/ninjitsu stalk | The Somnabulist Lvl 33 dark/nec MM | Mr Kripplin Lvl 32 rad/rad corr | M0RBIUS Lvl 20 necro/poison MM | The Infrigidator Lvl 20 ice/cold corr


Last edited by MrX on Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:34 pm 
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It's an interesting concept... one I have given serious thought...

My biggest concerns have always been that Dark Melee is actually a pretty utility heavy set, with (for a Scrapper primary) relatively few good 'attacks'. It does have some very nice backup for Regens already significant strengths, giving even more health and end recovery in combat... and Soul Drain isn't to be sneezed at either.

I'm not sure that Darks tohit debuff will do much for you as far as damage mitigation goes... it's really not very large (I think the largest debuff is actually on Touch of Fear... and again that's a nice power in itself).

As for a level 50 Dark/Regen wiping the floor with Ebon?... hmm... I'll need to see it before I'm convinced. After all, in a one-on-one you get the worst returns on Dark Consumption and Soul Drain, and Focused Accuracy is going to make those tohit debuffs and Weave a total waste (and that's a lot of End Weave is wasting :twisted:) Granted... you could just Fear me to death.... but where is the fun in that? :wink:

To be honest, I think a DM/Regen has a lot of milage in them... but the ultimate toon?.. I think that after all our varied discussions I've come to the conclusion that there really isn't one... which can only be a good thing :D

_________________
@Ebon Hawk-EU or @Zenobia Blade

Official Chiefette Translator
----------------------------------
Intrepids
LOx lvl27 Tanker
Synaptic Pulse lvl25 Defender

Legends
Ebon Hawk (Claws/Regen Scrapper)
Girl Fusion (Empathy/Rad Blast Defender)
Zenobia Blade (Broadsword/Shield/Blaze Scrapper)
Pyrokyne (Fire/Kin/Mu Corruptor)
Blaize of Glory (Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster)
Silver Falcon (Tri-form Peacebringer)
Second Sun (Fire/Rad Controller)

Institution
Bitter Blizzard lvl 50 Corruptor
Taze lvl 17 Brute


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:22 pm 
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as a long time DM/Regener all i can say is boreing now thats not to say there a bad set its just there so boreing togeather you have 3 attakes which slotted correctly make a unbroken chain you have a attake/heal on top which throwin in every so often adds to your regen and you have a fear for those bosses. add the small tohit debuff which atho pathetic cuts out one or 2 hits allowing you to regen some more.

basically aslong as you dont take on more than your sugnificant regen can handel you'll never have to worry

as to a ebon vs DM/Regen i imagin it would be somthin like fear hit hit hit fear hit hit hit fear hit hit hit fear some more

oh and i would forget about tuff and weave and instead look at the presence pool you may find the additinal fears give you more milage when it comes to PvP

MESS

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:40 pm 
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Ah... bring on willpower, with fear protection in its Mez resist toggle :twisted:

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@Ebon Hawk-EU or @Zenobia Blade

Official Chiefette Translator
----------------------------------
Intrepids
LOx lvl27 Tanker
Synaptic Pulse lvl25 Defender

Legends
Ebon Hawk (Claws/Regen Scrapper)
Girl Fusion (Empathy/Rad Blast Defender)
Zenobia Blade (Broadsword/Shield/Blaze Scrapper)
Pyrokyne (Fire/Kin/Mu Corruptor)
Blaize of Glory (Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster)
Silver Falcon (Tri-form Peacebringer)
Second Sun (Fire/Rad Controller)

Institution
Bitter Blizzard lvl 50 Corruptor
Taze lvl 17 Brute


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:50 pm 
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haha. Thanks for the feedback guys. I guess it could get a bit boring (mess). ANd would one regen ever be able to kill another? Not sure, tbh. Could be good fun trying though. The end advantage would have to be with the Dark Consumption guy though.

BTW Ebo (or anyone) have you seen/heard any more about that MoG query. I've experimented with MoG a lot but always decided that using MoG was more dangerous than not using it (or you would alwyas spend ages waiting for it to die before you could run on to the next fight. I decided long ago that you might as well use the slots on Reconstruction instead (and get a 40% heal every 30 seconds) but ...

1. does Caltrops really cut straight through MoG too?
2. would Ice Storm and Blizzard do the same?
3. Even though Ice Storm and Blizzard have a 100% tohit level (as far I understand it, and instead of the usual 50-75%) does that mean they will nearly always hit? Or presumably these are just subject to the usual tohit+tohit buffs - defence+tohit debuffs formula? With MoG defence at 70% then Ice Storm would still be hitting at a 30%-40% strike rate (with no regeneration at all on the toon). Presumably a nice cuddly ice/rad toon (with the extra defence debuffs) would also be able to cut through MoG pretty quickly too? Anyone else played with or seen that?
4. How many other auto-hitting damage powers (like Caltrops) are there?

Toodle-pips.

_________________
[b]MrX Heroes: MrX Lvl 50 warshade. | MIND0R Lvl 50 mind/emp troll | The-Messenger Lvl 50 BS/regen scrap | Covert Lvl 42 kin/pys def | .Relic Lvl 42 illu/emp troll | Havoc Lvl 42 kin/elec def | The-Elemental Lvl 39 storm/dark def | Unsung Lvl 38 dark/regen scrap | WRENCH Lvl 34 shield/wrench tank | The Watcher Lvl 15 earth/rad troller | Villains: FR0STBITE Lvl 50 ice/kin corr | Dark-X Lvl 47 dark/stone brute | N'Ice Lvl 42 ice/rad corr | Vortex Lvl 42 robotics/storm MM | ShadowBaby Lvl 41 claws/regen stalk | The Cloak Lvl 41 energy/energy stalk | Thang Lvl 39 robotics/FF MM | IonFist Lvl 34 energy/ninjitsu stalk | The Somnabulist Lvl 33 dark/nec MM | Mr Kripplin Lvl 32 rad/rad corr | M0RBIUS Lvl 20 necro/poison MM | The Infrigidator Lvl 20 ice/cold corr


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 Post subject: Technical point: Dark defence debuffs
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:08 pm 
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Ebo wrote:
I'm not sure that Darks tohit debuff will do much for you as far as damage mitigation goes... it's really not very large (I think the largest debuff is actually on Touch of Fear... and again that's a nice power in itself).

I think the debuffs effect is a bit stronger than you think Ebo. Obviously they all stack and roughly as follows:

11.25% - Touch of Fear (debuff duration: 20 seconds)
5.50% - Midnight Grasp (debuff duration: 20 seconds)
5.50% - shadow punch (debuff duration: 6 seconds)
5.50% - smite (debuff duration: 10 seconds)
5.50% - shadow maul (debuff duration: 10 seconds)
--------
33.25% - total (at any time but after the first round of smacks)
--------

That's not a small acc debuff, that's a pretty tastey one, especially in PVP. What else is going to give a scrapper a defence buff that high (and against all damage types)? Elude's 180 seconds out of 1,000 excluded.

When Dark-X gets his (dark) fists swinging the incoming hit rate definitely drops to a less than 50% even against Relentless bosses. That's a lot of damage mitigation.

_________________
[b]MrX Heroes: MrX Lvl 50 warshade. | MIND0R Lvl 50 mind/emp troll | The-Messenger Lvl 50 BS/regen scrap | Covert Lvl 42 kin/pys def | .Relic Lvl 42 illu/emp troll | Havoc Lvl 42 kin/elec def | The-Elemental Lvl 39 storm/dark def | Unsung Lvl 38 dark/regen scrap | WRENCH Lvl 34 shield/wrench tank | The Watcher Lvl 15 earth/rad troller | Villains: FR0STBITE Lvl 50 ice/kin corr | Dark-X Lvl 47 dark/stone brute | N'Ice Lvl 42 ice/rad corr | Vortex Lvl 42 robotics/storm MM | ShadowBaby Lvl 41 claws/regen stalk | The Cloak Lvl 41 energy/energy stalk | Thang Lvl 39 robotics/FF MM | IonFist Lvl 34 energy/ninjitsu stalk | The Somnabulist Lvl 33 dark/nec MM | Mr Kripplin Lvl 32 rad/rad corr | M0RBIUS Lvl 20 necro/poison MM | The Infrigidator Lvl 20 ice/cold corr


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:27 pm 
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Look at those debuff durations though X... then cross reference that with animation times and recharge times..... I think that if you can stack them all (which is what you need to get that tasty 30+%) you'll have to use a really convoluted, far from damage-optimal attack chain.

realistically I think you'd do well to get more that 20% out of it... which isn't bad, but frankly Focused Accuracy will slice through that like it's not even there :twisted:

As to your other questions:

1. does Caltrops really cut straight through MoG too?
- Yes... I can confirm that Caltrops hits through MoG... as do malta turrets. Anything autohitting will hit :wink:

2. would Ice Storm and Blizzard do the same?
- in PvE it should.. in PvP no, because those powers are only autohit in PvE (which is why they now, and have for a while, taken Acc Enhancements... as they have a tohit roll in PvP)

3. Even though Ice Storm and Blizzard have a 100% tohit level (as far I understand it, and instead of the usual 50-75%) does that mean they will nearly always hit? Or presumably these are just subject to the usual tohit+tohit buffs - defence+tohit debuffs formula? With MoG defence at 70% then Ice Storm would still be hitting at a 30%-40% strike rate (with no regeneration at all on the toon). Presumably a nice cuddly ice/rad toon (with the extra defence debuffs) would also be able to cut through MoG pretty quickly too? Anyone else played with or seen that?
- See the prior answer... basically a heap of powers (like Ice Storm, Blizzard for it's status effect etc) that autohit in PvE have a tohit roll in PvP.


4. How many other auto-hitting damage powers (like Caltrops) are there?
- erm... caltrops.... static turrets... not sure beyond that. It might be relatively safe to say that placeables with a low DoT will tend to autohit... except you could argue Ice Storm fits that, and that does not autohit in PvP.


So.. to sum up, the waters are muddy because some powers that autohit in PvE do not autohit in PvP.

_________________
@Ebon Hawk-EU or @Zenobia Blade

Official Chiefette Translator
----------------------------------
Intrepids
LOx lvl27 Tanker
Synaptic Pulse lvl25 Defender

Legends
Ebon Hawk (Claws/Regen Scrapper)
Girl Fusion (Empathy/Rad Blast Defender)
Zenobia Blade (Broadsword/Shield/Blaze Scrapper)
Pyrokyne (Fire/Kin/Mu Corruptor)
Blaize of Glory (Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster)
Silver Falcon (Tri-form Peacebringer)
Second Sun (Fire/Rad Controller)

Institution
Bitter Blizzard lvl 50 Corruptor
Taze lvl 17 Brute


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:43 pm 
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i played these sets and found them very boring as mess said although i do know someone who leveled this toon all the way and play the toon very well! I personally can name 1 power that does a nastier to hit debuff than that :P Hurricane!!!it does a straight out -36% and if the other player stays in range (which with the help of snow storm among other powers) then the tohit debuff becomes Critical and extremely unpleasant! Infact i have been able to keep scrappers trapped in a corner waiting for my endurance to come back with nothing but hurricane and snow storm and shiver to keep them there while they flail away trying desperately to hit me using build up and failing miserably while i stand there and laugh and watch jack frost have a bit of fun :)!

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Queen Of Control!

Lauren:
Blaze: 50: Fire/Trick Arrow/Fire
Frost: 50: Ice/Storm/Ice
Hellfire: 50: Fire/Kinetic/Fire
Mage: 50: Illusion/Force Field/Psionic
Newton: 50: Gravity/Radiation/Psionic
Peace: 50: Mind/Empathy/Primal Forces
Shriek: 50: Gravity/Sonic/Psionic
Stone: 50: Earth/Kinetic/Earth

Also:

Bloom: 49: Plant/Rad/Earth
Melt: 40: Ice/Thermal


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:53 pm 
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but while we are on the Pvp subject i think that i may too be creating my own new character for PvP! i have retired Lauren Frost to PvE as her damage output and End use is far too high which is where i may be introducing a Fire/Storm or Fire/Rad for a maximum damage/debuff potential :)!

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Queen Of Control!

Lauren:
Blaze: 50: Fire/Trick Arrow/Fire
Frost: 50: Ice/Storm/Ice
Hellfire: 50: Fire/Kinetic/Fire
Mage: 50: Illusion/Force Field/Psionic
Newton: 50: Gravity/Radiation/Psionic
Peace: 50: Mind/Empathy/Primal Forces
Shriek: 50: Gravity/Sonic/Psionic
Stone: 50: Earth/Kinetic/Earth

Also:

Bloom: 49: Plant/Rad/Earth
Melt: 40: Ice/Thermal


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:08 pm 
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Thanks Ebo/Lauren. I know Hurrican (and Rad infection and Darkest Night) all have a good -acc debuffs LP, I meant on a scrapper. :)

But thanks for feedback though. Ebo, the attack chain works just like I've listed it:

11.25% - Touch of Fear (debuff duration: 20 seconds, recharge 8 secs)
5.50% - Midnight Grasp (debuff duration: 20 seconds, recharge 15)
5.50% - shadow punch (debuff duration: 6 seconds, recharge 3)
5.50% - smite (debuff duration: 10 seconds, recharge 6)
5.50% - shadow maul (debuff duration: 10 seconds, recharge 8 )

And the order you probably would hit so Touch of Fear stacks on itself within it's own recharge cycle (so that's a 33.75%+ tohit debuff on it's own with 3 debuff SOs and a single recharge SO). You could also stack Midnight Grasp within it's own recycle time too (with 2 recharge SOs). But, of course, you would largely be recycling shadow punch, smite and shadow maul and topping up with Touch of Fear/Midnight Grasp at the end of their cycles.

That's still more like a 40% debuff than a 20% debuff. Siphon Life also debuffs 5.5% whenever you fire that off (which may as well be quite often if you're taking any damage at all).

I can see why you're be bored though Lauren: no AoE controls at all with this toon (or any other scrapper) and no pets either. I mostly play defender/controllers (and dominators/corrupters) for that same reasons but I still have more fun with scrappers/stalkers and brutes - but maybe for shorter durations, thinking about it.

But we're digressing here.

The quest is to find the uber-scrapper. The scrapper that can beat all scrappers. Many of the posts I have read state that the dark melee has the highest sustainable DPS too. The biggest threat for the scrapper pool will probably come from a Reflex though. Perhaps a dark/reflex would be better than a dark/regen but as Ebo says once you have Focused Accuracy running I still think I would rather have a high heal-rate than a high defence. Have you seen that Ebo? Will Focused Accuracy cut straight through a Reflex's defence too?

_________________
[b]MrX Heroes: MrX Lvl 50 warshade. | MIND0R Lvl 50 mind/emp troll | The-Messenger Lvl 50 BS/regen scrap | Covert Lvl 42 kin/pys def | .Relic Lvl 42 illu/emp troll | Havoc Lvl 42 kin/elec def | The-Elemental Lvl 39 storm/dark def | Unsung Lvl 38 dark/regen scrap | WRENCH Lvl 34 shield/wrench tank | The Watcher Lvl 15 earth/rad troller | Villains: FR0STBITE Lvl 50 ice/kin corr | Dark-X Lvl 47 dark/stone brute | N'Ice Lvl 42 ice/rad corr | Vortex Lvl 42 robotics/storm MM | ShadowBaby Lvl 41 claws/regen stalk | The Cloak Lvl 41 energy/energy stalk | Thang Lvl 39 robotics/FF MM | IonFist Lvl 34 energy/ninjitsu stalk | The Somnabulist Lvl 33 dark/nec MM | Mr Kripplin Lvl 32 rad/rad corr | M0RBIUS Lvl 20 necro/poison MM | The Infrigidator Lvl 20 ice/cold corr


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:23 pm 
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Yeah, cannot describe how I missed such threads :)...

Will read thoroughly when I have time and post my comments, and probably, X will not like them :)...

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The Intrepids:
Blastor-Level 50 Energy/Fire/Electrical Blaster, Dr. Blast-Level 50 Robotics/Force Field/Mace Mastermind, Holy Blast-Level 50 Peacebringer, Blasting Spines-Level 50 Spines/Regeneration/Body Scrapper, Heatblast-Level 50 Invulnerability/Fiery/Pyre Tanker, Fire Blast-Level 50 Fire/Kinetics/Leviathan Corruptor, Thunder Steel-Level 50 Ninja/Ninjitsu/Mu Stalker, Israfel the Fallen-Level 50 Sonic/Thermal/Dark Corruptor, Blastor Ascended-Level 50 Psychic/Energy/Force Blaster, Fright-Level 50 Kinetic/Dark Armour/Energy Brute, Calibro-Level 50 Dual Pistols/Radiation/Power Corruptor, Nlidia-Level 50 Gravity/Storm/Ice Controller.

The Institution:
Admiral Blast-Level 50 Energy/Energy/Mace Brute, Darkest Blast-Level 50 Mind/Psionic/Leviathan Dominator, Arbiter Blast-Level 50 Crab/Mace Arachnos Soldier, Unmerciful Steel-Level 50 Dual Blades/Willpower/Soul Brute, Mind Blaster-Level 50 Dark Miasma/Psychic/Psychic Defender, Blastor Reborn-Level 50 Ice/Electric/Force Blaster, Superiora-Level 50 Invulnerability/Super Strength/Energy Tanker, Gaia Queen-Level 50 Plant/Empathy/Stone Controller, Shadow Seer-Level 50 Fortunata/Soul Arachnos Widow, Zamana-Level 50 Time/Beam Rifle Defender, Wild Raven-Level 50 Will Power/Street Justice/Energy Tanker, Nlador-Level 50 Titan/Fiery Brute.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:18 pm 
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FA will cut through almost anything.... Rad Infection for sure... SR no problem... although I'll grant you that with an SR running toggles +elude then it's tighter... but hey, Elude doesn't last that long, and without it they are getting hit plenty :twisted:

_________________
@Ebon Hawk-EU or @Zenobia Blade

Official Chiefette Translator
----------------------------------
Intrepids
LOx lvl27 Tanker
Synaptic Pulse lvl25 Defender

Legends
Ebon Hawk (Claws/Regen Scrapper)
Girl Fusion (Empathy/Rad Blast Defender)
Zenobia Blade (Broadsword/Shield/Blaze Scrapper)
Pyrokyne (Fire/Kin/Mu Corruptor)
Blaize of Glory (Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster)
Silver Falcon (Tri-form Peacebringer)
Second Sun (Fire/Rad Controller)

Institution
Bitter Blizzard lvl 50 Corruptor
Taze lvl 17 Brute


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:25 pm 
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i think FA pretty much cuts thrue anythin which is why its probably due a nerfing

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MESS (20), Ink Blot(19), Toxic(17), Lady Domino(9), TRASH(10), Alpha(11), Dreadnought(19), Skree(22), Intrepid(9), Scourge(9),
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:34 pm 
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nah.. it's not really due a nerfing at all... the end cost is nuts on FA.... it's really only regen scrappers that can deal with it.. well, now and willpower, who also get QR :wink:

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@Ebon Hawk-EU or @Zenobia Blade

Official Chiefette Translator
----------------------------------
Intrepids
LOx lvl27 Tanker
Synaptic Pulse lvl25 Defender

Legends
Ebon Hawk (Claws/Regen Scrapper)
Girl Fusion (Empathy/Rad Blast Defender)
Zenobia Blade (Broadsword/Shield/Blaze Scrapper)
Pyrokyne (Fire/Kin/Mu Corruptor)
Blaize of Glory (Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster)
Silver Falcon (Tri-form Peacebringer)
Second Sun (Fire/Rad Controller)

Institution
Bitter Blizzard lvl 50 Corruptor
Taze lvl 17 Brute


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:08 am 
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haha. That Fear mez that Will Power will have: do you know what mag it is Ebo/guys?

* Looks up Touch of Fear + Intimidate tables *

_________________
[b]MrX Heroes: MrX Lvl 50 warshade. | MIND0R Lvl 50 mind/emp troll | The-Messenger Lvl 50 BS/regen scrap | Covert Lvl 42 kin/pys def | .Relic Lvl 42 illu/emp troll | Havoc Lvl 42 kin/elec def | The-Elemental Lvl 39 storm/dark def | Unsung Lvl 38 dark/regen scrap | WRENCH Lvl 34 shield/wrench tank | The Watcher Lvl 15 earth/rad troller | Villains: FR0STBITE Lvl 50 ice/kin corr | Dark-X Lvl 47 dark/stone brute | N'Ice Lvl 42 ice/rad corr | Vortex Lvl 42 robotics/storm MM | ShadowBaby Lvl 41 claws/regen stalk | The Cloak Lvl 41 energy/energy stalk | Thang Lvl 39 robotics/FF MM | IonFist Lvl 34 energy/ninjitsu stalk | The Somnabulist Lvl 33 dark/nec MM | Mr Kripplin Lvl 32 rad/rad corr | M0RBIUS Lvl 20 necro/poison MM | The Infrigidator Lvl 20 ice/cold corr


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:53 am 
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X,

I do agree with Ebon here that the -acc aspect of Dark Melee would mean nothing to a scrapper with FA and Tactics on all the time. I will not get into numbers or discuss powers one by one, I'm just gonna mention a PvP match of a spine/regen vs. a dark/regen which I observed and it was an easy victory for the spine scrapper. Most of the scrapper primary sets have high damage, Spines is not one of them nor Dark Melee. But Spines is still good because of -Recharge and Slow aspects, which is more valuable than -acc & fear in PvP in my opinion.

However, I'd like to talk more about if the Regeneration is the right set for PvP. Because, the more I play my spines/regen scrapper in PvP the more I think it is not. There's no problem when facing melee fighters, however, it takes 3-4 holds for a blaster, defender or a controller to detoggle me, and everything hits to a regen since there's almost zero defence.

I remember it from a post on the official forum, a controller saying PvP matches with a regen scrappers were to easy to win while he tries to avoid any match with a SR scrapper.

After I10's invention system, me (Spines/Regen) & Mono (Claws/SR) we did many test matches with our scrappers in the arena. We both completed our IO builds by investing purely on recharge, Mono also invested on extra defence. Mono was amazing after his IO build, his plan was to start with Elude (3mins) after that Conserve Power (1.5min) with 1-2 defence inspirations after that 50 seconds to hit Elude again and continue with the chain, so he was always up and fighting. Also, he successfully used Heal Self because of his high defence so he really didn't have any HP issues...

We never had a winner as it was a draw everytime. We also switched accounts and played each others toons, the result was the same. I have to say I was more comfortable with my regen but I was constantly stressed when playing Mono because of the chance factor of a defence based toon, but at the end I was amazed with SR, as well as with the damage of Claws which gave me hard times eventhough I had perma Dull Pain...

I don't know about DM/Regen but if I ever create another Scrapper that will definitively be a BS/SR. But I'm already experiencing, almost, the feel with my Ninja Blade/Ninjitsu Stalker, too bad there's no Conserve Power in Patron Pools :)...

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@blastor-eu

The Intrepids:
Blastor-Level 50 Energy/Fire/Electrical Blaster, Dr. Blast-Level 50 Robotics/Force Field/Mace Mastermind, Holy Blast-Level 50 Peacebringer, Blasting Spines-Level 50 Spines/Regeneration/Body Scrapper, Heatblast-Level 50 Invulnerability/Fiery/Pyre Tanker, Fire Blast-Level 50 Fire/Kinetics/Leviathan Corruptor, Thunder Steel-Level 50 Ninja/Ninjitsu/Mu Stalker, Israfel the Fallen-Level 50 Sonic/Thermal/Dark Corruptor, Blastor Ascended-Level 50 Psychic/Energy/Force Blaster, Fright-Level 50 Kinetic/Dark Armour/Energy Brute, Calibro-Level 50 Dual Pistols/Radiation/Power Corruptor, Nlidia-Level 50 Gravity/Storm/Ice Controller.

The Institution:
Admiral Blast-Level 50 Energy/Energy/Mace Brute, Darkest Blast-Level 50 Mind/Psionic/Leviathan Dominator, Arbiter Blast-Level 50 Crab/Mace Arachnos Soldier, Unmerciful Steel-Level 50 Dual Blades/Willpower/Soul Brute, Mind Blaster-Level 50 Dark Miasma/Psychic/Psychic Defender, Blastor Reborn-Level 50 Ice/Electric/Force Blaster, Superiora-Level 50 Invulnerability/Super Strength/Energy Tanker, Gaia Queen-Level 50 Plant/Empathy/Stone Controller, Shadow Seer-Level 50 Fortunata/Soul Arachnos Widow, Zamana-Level 50 Time/Beam Rifle Defender, Wild Raven-Level 50 Will Power/Street Justice/Energy Tanker, Nlador-Level 50 Titan/Fiery Brute.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:15 am 
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No idea what the Fear protection mag will be... but I'd expect it to be comparable to the other status protection powers.

Last night I looked again at the new sets.. and whilst I still plan a willpower tanker, it's not going to be Dual Blades (Axe, in fact, is I think my prefered choice there).

I am looking seriously at a Dual Blades scrapper.... I'm still a touch undecided on the secondary though... I'm thinking either Willpower or SR. Both sets are sets you need to really take pretty much all of... and I do like that WP has a good spread of options (and QR).... but SR does look very nice... and either will fit a natural scrapper well.

Any thoughts guys?

_________________
@Ebon Hawk-EU or @Zenobia Blade

Official Chiefette Translator
----------------------------------
Intrepids
LOx lvl27 Tanker
Synaptic Pulse lvl25 Defender

Legends
Ebon Hawk (Claws/Regen Scrapper)
Girl Fusion (Empathy/Rad Blast Defender)
Zenobia Blade (Broadsword/Shield/Blaze Scrapper)
Pyrokyne (Fire/Kin/Mu Corruptor)
Blaize of Glory (Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster)
Silver Falcon (Tri-form Peacebringer)
Second Sun (Fire/Rad Controller)

Institution
Bitter Blizzard lvl 50 Corruptor
Taze lvl 17 Brute


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:10 pm 
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Thanks Blast/guys. I have to say that I would also love to a high defence toon of some sort some day (higher than my energy/energy stalker that is) and broadsword is completly excellent - I can vouch for that - a broadsword/SR would undoubtably be fun. I presume both you and mono had Focused Accuracy running too Blast?

On the fear question though: I did assume that Touch of Fear would present one of the biggest obstacles here though. It's highly accurate, self-stacking and, of course, generates fear. So how does another melee fighter avoid the fear status effect?

I'm a huge fan of slow and -recharge powers on toons too (and have two psi damage toons on the go as well as five ice toons) but with a spine/x being hit by almost perpetual fearing surely the slowing effects of any hits are irrelvant. NB You can't attack when feared to what are you going to do?

Of course you could take the presence set - by dropping something else -but other than that I can't see how any melee toon would get far against a Touch of Fear.

What am I missing?

_________________
[b]MrX Heroes: MrX Lvl 50 warshade. | MIND0R Lvl 50 mind/emp troll | The-Messenger Lvl 50 BS/regen scrap | Covert Lvl 42 kin/pys def | .Relic Lvl 42 illu/emp troll | Havoc Lvl 42 kin/elec def | The-Elemental Lvl 39 storm/dark def | Unsung Lvl 38 dark/regen scrap | WRENCH Lvl 34 shield/wrench tank | The Watcher Lvl 15 earth/rad troller | Villains: FR0STBITE Lvl 50 ice/kin corr | Dark-X Lvl 47 dark/stone brute | N'Ice Lvl 42 ice/rad corr | Vortex Lvl 42 robotics/storm MM | ShadowBaby Lvl 41 claws/regen stalk | The Cloak Lvl 41 energy/energy stalk | Thang Lvl 39 robotics/FF MM | IonFist Lvl 34 energy/ninjitsu stalk | The Somnabulist Lvl 33 dark/nec MM | Mr Kripplin Lvl 32 rad/rad corr | M0RBIUS Lvl 20 necro/poison MM | The Infrigidator Lvl 20 ice/cold corr


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:53 pm 
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Yep, both Mono and me had Focused Accuracy on.

Touch of Fear: Fear is a great power since not many toons have protection for it, but I do not see any use of Touch of Fear against a melee fighter X. Touch of Fear is a melee attack and fear does not detoggle your enemy. And eventhough your opponent is under the fear effect he has a chance to respond if you attack him afterwards. Also, it's end heavy and during the fight you might consider using other damage attacks instead of ToF to conserve endurance.

Fear mez is more effective if used from distance in my opinion. For instance, use Intimidate to a melee fighter then Aim+Build Up+Snipe him, then it's deadly. Or use Build Up+Impale+Throw Spines+Laser Beam Eyes in my case...

But stay at melee distance, use ToF, then use another melee attack, in this case, your opponent can hit you back, losing nothing from his attack chain.

ToF might be useful if used as a panic button, you fear your enemy then retreat and prepare yourself for the next attack...

Plus, break frees offer 30sec protection from fear and regens have the luxury to carry more BFs instead of green & blue inspirations...

_________________
@blastor-eu

The Intrepids:
Blastor-Level 50 Energy/Fire/Electrical Blaster, Dr. Blast-Level 50 Robotics/Force Field/Mace Mastermind, Holy Blast-Level 50 Peacebringer, Blasting Spines-Level 50 Spines/Regeneration/Body Scrapper, Heatblast-Level 50 Invulnerability/Fiery/Pyre Tanker, Fire Blast-Level 50 Fire/Kinetics/Leviathan Corruptor, Thunder Steel-Level 50 Ninja/Ninjitsu/Mu Stalker, Israfel the Fallen-Level 50 Sonic/Thermal/Dark Corruptor, Blastor Ascended-Level 50 Psychic/Energy/Force Blaster, Fright-Level 50 Kinetic/Dark Armour/Energy Brute, Calibro-Level 50 Dual Pistols/Radiation/Power Corruptor, Nlidia-Level 50 Gravity/Storm/Ice Controller.

The Institution:
Admiral Blast-Level 50 Energy/Energy/Mace Brute, Darkest Blast-Level 50 Mind/Psionic/Leviathan Dominator, Arbiter Blast-Level 50 Crab/Mace Arachnos Soldier, Unmerciful Steel-Level 50 Dual Blades/Willpower/Soul Brute, Mind Blaster-Level 50 Dark Miasma/Psychic/Psychic Defender, Blastor Reborn-Level 50 Ice/Electric/Force Blaster, Superiora-Level 50 Invulnerability/Super Strength/Energy Tanker, Gaia Queen-Level 50 Plant/Empathy/Stone Controller, Shadow Seer-Level 50 Fortunata/Soul Arachnos Widow, Zamana-Level 50 Time/Beam Rifle Defender, Wild Raven-Level 50 Will Power/Street Justice/Energy Tanker, Nlador-Level 50 Titan/Fiery Brute.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:16 pm 
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Actualy blast i think your not seeing the true power of ToF for a melee toon your right in saying that your oponent can just retaliate but they cant do that untill you do somthin to them as a dark/dark brute i live on fear both in PvE and PvP and while tainted is less than brill at PvP he can hold his own aghenst most things

At the begining of fights i tend to fire ToF off once or twice with some luck you catch your oponent when there in teh buildup + swallow yellow/reds stage effectivly makeing them waist all of them. also when im low on health i use ToF to give me a breather its a situationl power but dose have its uses its also far more effective than the ranged version from the presence pull

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MESS (20), Ink Blot(19), Toxic(17), Lady Domino(9), TRASH(10), Alpha(11), Dreadnought(19), Skree(22), Intrepid(9), Scourge(9),
Angus(1), Mr Meccano(9), Hard Target(5), Big Zero(18), Anubis(9), Dummy(1)

CoH Globals: @MESS or @TRASH
Heroes
MESS (50) Tank

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Tainted Mess (50) Brute, TRASH (50) Brute, Magmite (50) Brute, Smelt Furnace (50) Brute

The rest of my Alts

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:06 pm 
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I agree with Mess, blast. Sounds like wishful thinking on your part mate:
blast wrote:
Touch of Fear is a melee attack and fear does not detoggle your enemy. And eventhough your opponent is under the fear effect he has a chance to respond if you attack him afterwards. Also, it's end heavy and during the fight you might consider using other damage attacks instead of ToF to conserve endurance.

The purpose of Touch of Fear is put you under a permanent state of fear (as well as the -acc debuff) and unable to attack at all. In that sense it's a good as a hold but better as there are very very few toons with any amount of fear mag resistance at all*.

I don't need to knock toggles and since when has ToF been end-heavy (not that that's even relevant to a regen). ToF costs just 8.5% endurance, same as Shadow Maul and less than Midnight Grasp.

* but this makes me wander if I've misunderstood something that mess commented on here:
Mess wrote:
for a melee toon your right in saying that your oponent can just retaliate but they cant do that untill you do somethin to them
.

My impression was that they only get one opportunity to retaliate - just like in the PVE game Mess? NB they can retaliate just once (one hit, one action, etc) but after that they remain terrorised until the duration passes? Which is why I've been saying/thinking that ToF is a very big obstacle. If it does what I think it does (in PVP as in PVE) then once landed ToF takes you out of the fight until further notice.

Isn't that right?

_________________
[b]MrX Heroes: MrX Lvl 50 warshade. | MIND0R Lvl 50 mind/emp troll | The-Messenger Lvl 50 BS/regen scrap | Covert Lvl 42 kin/pys def | .Relic Lvl 42 illu/emp troll | Havoc Lvl 42 kin/elec def | The-Elemental Lvl 39 storm/dark def | Unsung Lvl 38 dark/regen scrap | WRENCH Lvl 34 shield/wrench tank | The Watcher Lvl 15 earth/rad troller | Villains: FR0STBITE Lvl 50 ice/kin corr | Dark-X Lvl 47 dark/stone brute | N'Ice Lvl 42 ice/rad corr | Vortex Lvl 42 robotics/storm MM | ShadowBaby Lvl 41 claws/regen stalk | The Cloak Lvl 41 energy/energy stalk | Thang Lvl 39 robotics/FF MM | IonFist Lvl 34 energy/ninjitsu stalk | The Somnabulist Lvl 33 dark/nec MM | Mr Kripplin Lvl 32 rad/rad corr | M0RBIUS Lvl 20 necro/poison MM | The Infrigidator Lvl 20 ice/cold corr


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:16 pm 
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Mess,

My comments are based on the criteria given by X. Correct me where I'm wrong please X:

1) The quest is to find the uber-scrapper. The scrapper that can beat all scrappers.

2) Touch of Fear to be used as a part of an attack chain.


I accept and already mentioned that your opponent will not be able to respond under the effect of fear until you attack, but you cannot defeat your opponent without attacking :). With ToF you can fear your opponent but since DM has no ranged attacks (unless you have ranged attacks like LBE) you'll be at the melee distance and your opponent will always have a chance to respond.

With the same logic in mind, I actually think a Spines/Regen with Intimidate has more chance against a Dark Melee/Regen with Touch of Fear. Because Spines Regen can use Intimidate from distance then perform a Build Up+Impale attack from min 40ft. and Dark Melee scrapper has no chance to respond to it. And Spines scrapper can repeat this in every 9 seconds (based on Blasting Spines' build). So in theory, Dark Melee scrapper will not be able to come to melee distance that often. Would this be enough for Spines scrapper to defeat Dark Melee scrapper? I do not think so, but I do not think that ToF used as a part of an attack chain would be enough to beat all scrappers either.

As for comparing ToF with Intimidate, ToF has mag3 and faster recharge time (and it is single targer, isn't it?) while Intimidate is mag2 but its range aspect is more valuable if your toon also has ranged attacks and you're playing against a melee fighter.

And finally I agree with you, and I already mentioned, that ToF has a better use as a breather (I accept I exagerated it when describing it as a panic button).

_________________
@blastor-eu

The Intrepids:
Blastor-Level 50 Energy/Fire/Electrical Blaster, Dr. Blast-Level 50 Robotics/Force Field/Mace Mastermind, Holy Blast-Level 50 Peacebringer, Blasting Spines-Level 50 Spines/Regeneration/Body Scrapper, Heatblast-Level 50 Invulnerability/Fiery/Pyre Tanker, Fire Blast-Level 50 Fire/Kinetics/Leviathan Corruptor, Thunder Steel-Level 50 Ninja/Ninjitsu/Mu Stalker, Israfel the Fallen-Level 50 Sonic/Thermal/Dark Corruptor, Blastor Ascended-Level 50 Psychic/Energy/Force Blaster, Fright-Level 50 Kinetic/Dark Armour/Energy Brute, Calibro-Level 50 Dual Pistols/Radiation/Power Corruptor, Nlidia-Level 50 Gravity/Storm/Ice Controller.

The Institution:
Admiral Blast-Level 50 Energy/Energy/Mace Brute, Darkest Blast-Level 50 Mind/Psionic/Leviathan Dominator, Arbiter Blast-Level 50 Crab/Mace Arachnos Soldier, Unmerciful Steel-Level 50 Dual Blades/Willpower/Soul Brute, Mind Blaster-Level 50 Dark Miasma/Psychic/Psychic Defender, Blastor Reborn-Level 50 Ice/Electric/Force Blaster, Superiora-Level 50 Invulnerability/Super Strength/Energy Tanker, Gaia Queen-Level 50 Plant/Empathy/Stone Controller, Shadow Seer-Level 50 Fortunata/Soul Arachnos Widow, Zamana-Level 50 Time/Beam Rifle Defender, Wild Raven-Level 50 Will Power/Street Justice/Energy Tanker, Nlador-Level 50 Titan/Fiery Brute.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:28 pm 
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MrX wrote:
My impression was that they only get one opportunity to retaliate - just like in the PVE game Mess? NB they can retaliate just once (one hit, one action, etc) but after that they remain terrorised until the duration passes? Which is why I've been saying/thinking that ToF is a very big obstacle. If it does what I think it does (in PVP as in PVE) then once landed ToF takes you out of the fight until further notice.

Isn't that right?


As far as I know, an opponent, under the effect of fear, can retaliate after everytime you attack. But I might be wrong...

_________________
@blastor-eu

The Intrepids:
Blastor-Level 50 Energy/Fire/Electrical Blaster, Dr. Blast-Level 50 Robotics/Force Field/Mace Mastermind, Holy Blast-Level 50 Peacebringer, Blasting Spines-Level 50 Spines/Regeneration/Body Scrapper, Heatblast-Level 50 Invulnerability/Fiery/Pyre Tanker, Fire Blast-Level 50 Fire/Kinetics/Leviathan Corruptor, Thunder Steel-Level 50 Ninja/Ninjitsu/Mu Stalker, Israfel the Fallen-Level 50 Sonic/Thermal/Dark Corruptor, Blastor Ascended-Level 50 Psychic/Energy/Force Blaster, Fright-Level 50 Kinetic/Dark Armour/Energy Brute, Calibro-Level 50 Dual Pistols/Radiation/Power Corruptor, Nlidia-Level 50 Gravity/Storm/Ice Controller.

The Institution:
Admiral Blast-Level 50 Energy/Energy/Mace Brute, Darkest Blast-Level 50 Mind/Psionic/Leviathan Dominator, Arbiter Blast-Level 50 Crab/Mace Arachnos Soldier, Unmerciful Steel-Level 50 Dual Blades/Willpower/Soul Brute, Mind Blaster-Level 50 Dark Miasma/Psychic/Psychic Defender, Blastor Reborn-Level 50 Ice/Electric/Force Blaster, Superiora-Level 50 Invulnerability/Super Strength/Energy Tanker, Gaia Queen-Level 50 Plant/Empathy/Stone Controller, Shadow Seer-Level 50 Fortunata/Soul Arachnos Widow, Zamana-Level 50 Time/Beam Rifle Defender, Wild Raven-Level 50 Will Power/Street Justice/Energy Tanker, Nlador-Level 50 Titan/Fiery Brute.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:33 pm 
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haha. Exactly:
Blasty wrote:
As far as I know, an opponent, under the effect of fear, can retaliate after everytime you attack them. But I might be wrong...

Cos that's definitely not how it works in the PVE game. You get one chance to hit or run. If you choose to stand and hit then you're stuck there until the effect passes - and I stand by everything I've said. If this is what ToF does you will be stuck on the spot and unable to respond further.

Then again. Maybe PVP is different. I'll just go check what I've been saying here on Unsung otherwise me might have to set-up that test with Dark-X and the Admiral, blast. :D

_________________
[b]MrX Heroes: MrX Lvl 50 warshade. | MIND0R Lvl 50 mind/emp troll | The-Messenger Lvl 50 BS/regen scrap | Covert Lvl 42 kin/pys def | .Relic Lvl 42 illu/emp troll | Havoc Lvl 42 kin/elec def | The-Elemental Lvl 39 storm/dark def | Unsung Lvl 38 dark/regen scrap | WRENCH Lvl 34 shield/wrench tank | The Watcher Lvl 15 earth/rad troller | Villains: FR0STBITE Lvl 50 ice/kin corr | Dark-X Lvl 47 dark/stone brute | N'Ice Lvl 42 ice/rad corr | Vortex Lvl 42 robotics/storm MM | ShadowBaby Lvl 41 claws/regen stalk | The Cloak Lvl 41 energy/energy stalk | Thang Lvl 39 robotics/FF MM | IonFist Lvl 34 energy/ninjitsu stalk | The Somnabulist Lvl 33 dark/nec MM | Mr Kripplin Lvl 32 rad/rad corr | M0RBIUS Lvl 20 necro/poison MM | The Infrigidator Lvl 20 ice/cold corr


Last edited by MrX on Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:34 pm 
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When feared you get one reaction per action against you... ie for everytime you get attacked you get to do something, such as attack back.

_________________
@Ebon Hawk-EU or @Zenobia Blade

Official Chiefette Translator
----------------------------------
Intrepids
LOx lvl27 Tanker
Synaptic Pulse lvl25 Defender

Legends
Ebon Hawk (Claws/Regen Scrapper)
Girl Fusion (Empathy/Rad Blast Defender)
Zenobia Blade (Broadsword/Shield/Blaze Scrapper)
Pyrokyne (Fire/Kin/Mu Corruptor)
Blaize of Glory (Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster)
Silver Falcon (Tri-form Peacebringer)
Second Sun (Fire/Rad Controller)

Institution
Bitter Blizzard lvl 50 Corruptor
Taze lvl 17 Brute


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:01 pm 
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Back. :D

Just tested this with Unsung:
Ebo wrote:
When feared you get one reaction per action against you... ie for everytime you get attacked you get to do something, such as attack back.

It doesn't do exactly what I thought but it doesn't do what you think either blast/ebo:

After ToC lands you get a single opportunity to do 'something' - which might be to run away (I've read somewhere else) - otherwise you are glued, terrorised to the spot. If I do hit you again then you can retaliate again but only once and you will then revert to your terrorised status.

So that's not as good as I thought but it does mean that the DM should be able to control the fight and you guys wouldn't be able to respond again until he decided - so he could simply que up his hardest shots and then continue at leisure.

Point taken though: the DM doesn't get any hard shots in the first place. :D

Against two regens I can't see this getting very far either way but as Mess says you can still use it to control the fight and it will be a case which toon does more DPS and/or enough to overcome the other's heal. But unless the other toon did have Intimidate themselves I can't see how your spines dude would win this. It does make me wander if firing up Build Up is your 'something' else or you can fire that up and a land another hit too? Makes me wander how sensitive CoH's controls are too? I.E. ToF activiates in 1.2 seconds. Most spines attacks take 2 or more seconds. Impale takes 2.4 seconds. If I hit you with Midnight Grasp and immediately afterwards with ToF would you have enough time to hit out inbetween? :shock:

Perhaps only time will tell, or a trip to the Arena. But it would probably have been too good to be true if ToF had worked exactly as I thought before.

Foiled again! :D

_________________
[b]MrX Heroes: MrX Lvl 50 warshade. | MIND0R Lvl 50 mind/emp troll | The-Messenger Lvl 50 BS/regen scrap | Covert Lvl 42 kin/pys def | .Relic Lvl 42 illu/emp troll | Havoc Lvl 42 kin/elec def | The-Elemental Lvl 39 storm/dark def | Unsung Lvl 38 dark/regen scrap | WRENCH Lvl 34 shield/wrench tank | The Watcher Lvl 15 earth/rad troller | Villains: FR0STBITE Lvl 50 ice/kin corr | Dark-X Lvl 47 dark/stone brute | N'Ice Lvl 42 ice/rad corr | Vortex Lvl 42 robotics/storm MM | ShadowBaby Lvl 41 claws/regen stalk | The Cloak Lvl 41 energy/energy stalk | Thang Lvl 39 robotics/FF MM | IonFist Lvl 34 energy/ninjitsu stalk | The Somnabulist Lvl 33 dark/nec MM | Mr Kripplin Lvl 32 rad/rad corr | M0RBIUS Lvl 20 necro/poison MM | The Infrigidator Lvl 20 ice/cold corr


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:57 pm 
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MrX wrote:
But unless the other toon did have Intimidate themselves I can't see how your spines dude would win this. It does make me wander if firing up Build Up is your 'something' else or you can fire that up and a land another hit too? Makes me wander how sensitive CoH's controls are too? I.E. ToF activiates in 1.2 seconds. Most spines attacks take 2 or more seconds. Impale takes 2.4 seconds. If I hit you with Midnight Grasp and immediately afterwards with ToF would you have enough time to hit out inbetween? :shock:

Perhaps only time will tell, or a trip to the Arena. But it would probably have been too good to be true if ToF had worked exactly as I thought before.

Foiled again! :D


How about 2 Spines/Regen with Intimidate with same Set Bonuses? Or better, how about 2 DM/Regen using ToF at the same time, lol, I'd like to see that :). I just compared ToF with Intimidate mate, and I still believe a scrapper with ranged attacks (not only Spines, Claws also has a ranged attack) with ranged fear will be more effective compared with a melee scrapper with melee fear. ToF might recharge faster but your opponent is not a light post, you'll need to get near him, while it's not impossible it'll take time as the compensation of Intimidate's longer recharge rate :)...

Anyway, most of scrapper fights with decent build end up with a draw, I just gave you an example of 2 different builds: Spines/Regen vs Claws/SR finishing with the same result (Erm, I also gave another example of Spines/Regen vs. DM/Regen, but it doesnt mean that DM is not a decent set :)).

SR, as you also mentioned in your initial posts, is the best PvP set in my opinion, strong against both melee fighters and mezzers. I'm a regen player but I already admit that I'm struggling against controllers. DM/SR would be a great comco actually, you debuff accuracy of the opponent working for your high defence, and you're immune to slow effects. And with Elude (providing fast recovery) and Conserve Power, you're up and fighting during most of the fight without any problems...

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@blastor-eu

The Intrepids:
Blastor-Level 50 Energy/Fire/Electrical Blaster, Dr. Blast-Level 50 Robotics/Force Field/Mace Mastermind, Holy Blast-Level 50 Peacebringer, Blasting Spines-Level 50 Spines/Regeneration/Body Scrapper, Heatblast-Level 50 Invulnerability/Fiery/Pyre Tanker, Fire Blast-Level 50 Fire/Kinetics/Leviathan Corruptor, Thunder Steel-Level 50 Ninja/Ninjitsu/Mu Stalker, Israfel the Fallen-Level 50 Sonic/Thermal/Dark Corruptor, Blastor Ascended-Level 50 Psychic/Energy/Force Blaster, Fright-Level 50 Kinetic/Dark Armour/Energy Brute, Calibro-Level 50 Dual Pistols/Radiation/Power Corruptor, Nlidia-Level 50 Gravity/Storm/Ice Controller.

The Institution:
Admiral Blast-Level 50 Energy/Energy/Mace Brute, Darkest Blast-Level 50 Mind/Psionic/Leviathan Dominator, Arbiter Blast-Level 50 Crab/Mace Arachnos Soldier, Unmerciful Steel-Level 50 Dual Blades/Willpower/Soul Brute, Mind Blaster-Level 50 Dark Miasma/Psychic/Psychic Defender, Blastor Reborn-Level 50 Ice/Electric/Force Blaster, Superiora-Level 50 Invulnerability/Super Strength/Energy Tanker, Gaia Queen-Level 50 Plant/Empathy/Stone Controller, Shadow Seer-Level 50 Fortunata/Soul Arachnos Widow, Zamana-Level 50 Time/Beam Rifle Defender, Wild Raven-Level 50 Will Power/Street Justice/Energy Tanker, Nlador-Level 50 Titan/Fiery Brute.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:47 pm 
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Well maybe I should redo Unsung as an SR. Not cos I think it will be better but becuase I haven't done one before. :D

EDIT: Obviously I'm not ready to recapitulate yet though. The only obvious problem with an SR (or most of the other scrappers) is that once they have taken a hit they have no way of quickly recovering any damage. Siphon Life excepted, of course, from the excellent DM set. A DM running Focused Accuracy will hit an SR and all the other ATs but which has the best survivability? I would still say it's a regen and a DM against any other toon will do good damage - and the DM set is the only that can fear and immobilise and controller/corruptor type. And DM does of course do negative energy damage while all the other scrappers do mostly lethal/smashing damage. I might flesh out the pro's and con's in this thread later and place link to build options at the top. All discusion/points of view still warmly welcomed meantime.

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[b]MrX Heroes: MrX Lvl 50 warshade. | MIND0R Lvl 50 mind/emp troll | The-Messenger Lvl 50 BS/regen scrap | Covert Lvl 42 kin/pys def | .Relic Lvl 42 illu/emp troll | Havoc Lvl 42 kin/elec def | The-Elemental Lvl 39 storm/dark def | Unsung Lvl 38 dark/regen scrap | WRENCH Lvl 34 shield/wrench tank | The Watcher Lvl 15 earth/rad troller | Villains: FR0STBITE Lvl 50 ice/kin corr | Dark-X Lvl 47 dark/stone brute | N'Ice Lvl 42 ice/rad corr | Vortex Lvl 42 robotics/storm MM | ShadowBaby Lvl 41 claws/regen stalk | The Cloak Lvl 41 energy/energy stalk | Thang Lvl 39 robotics/FF MM | IonFist Lvl 34 energy/ninjitsu stalk | The Somnabulist Lvl 33 dark/nec MM | Mr Kripplin Lvl 32 rad/rad corr | M0RBIUS Lvl 20 necro/poison MM | The Infrigidator Lvl 20 ice/cold corr


Last edited by MrX on Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:56 pm 
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I'm tending towards WP on my dual blades scrapper myself.... the mez protection is just too tasty to turn down.

Practiced Brawler is nice, and defence can help generically with status effects since you generally need to get hit for them to take effect.... but WP's mez protection covers fear, repel, confusion.... it's got a lot going for it!

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@Ebon Hawk-EU or @Zenobia Blade

Official Chiefette Translator
----------------------------------
Intrepids
LOx lvl27 Tanker
Synaptic Pulse lvl25 Defender

Legends
Ebon Hawk (Claws/Regen Scrapper)
Girl Fusion (Empathy/Rad Blast Defender)
Zenobia Blade (Broadsword/Shield/Blaze Scrapper)
Pyrokyne (Fire/Kin/Mu Corruptor)
Blaize of Glory (Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster)
Silver Falcon (Tri-form Peacebringer)
Second Sun (Fire/Rad Controller)

Institution
Bitter Blizzard lvl 50 Corruptor
Taze lvl 17 Brute


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:13 pm 
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Yep. Will Power looks very nice. Mids has just released an update of its Hero Designer with all the i11 stats in (inc thenew recipes too). The dev's obviously want Will Power set to be able to take on all the awkward controller/defender types.

Strength of Will looks particularly fine with a 120 second duration of high recovery, resistance and very high mag lvls too - but according to Mid's you can't put -recharge SO's in it (but it will take Aegis and Titanium Coating where you can stick -recharges in). :shock:

Good decision by the devs - I would say. Shame there's not at least 2-3 more sets at the same time. :P

_________________
[b]MrX Heroes: MrX Lvl 50 warshade. | MIND0R Lvl 50 mind/emp troll | The-Messenger Lvl 50 BS/regen scrap | Covert Lvl 42 kin/pys def | .Relic Lvl 42 illu/emp troll | Havoc Lvl 42 kin/elec def | The-Elemental Lvl 39 storm/dark def | Unsung Lvl 38 dark/regen scrap | WRENCH Lvl 34 shield/wrench tank | The Watcher Lvl 15 earth/rad troller | Villains: FR0STBITE Lvl 50 ice/kin corr | Dark-X Lvl 47 dark/stone brute | N'Ice Lvl 42 ice/rad corr | Vortex Lvl 42 robotics/storm MM | ShadowBaby Lvl 41 claws/regen stalk | The Cloak Lvl 41 energy/energy stalk | Thang Lvl 39 robotics/FF MM | IonFist Lvl 34 energy/ninjitsu stalk | The Somnabulist Lvl 33 dark/nec MM | Mr Kripplin Lvl 32 rad/rad corr | M0RBIUS Lvl 20 necro/poison MM | The Infrigidator Lvl 20 ice/cold corr


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