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 Post subject: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:36 pm 
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Hi all,

After having seen Avatar for the second time already, I can safely say that it is a mindblowing, moving and thoroughly entertaining experience.

Cameron's computer-wizards have solved the dead-eye problem, making you fully accept the feline aliens in it as alive with feelings. And the world they live in is literally jaw-dropping. And it feels utterly real.

The story is simple but utterly epic and compelling, the characters well-drawn with believable motivations. And the battle-scenes make LotR look like it was staged by a reenactment group.

This is without a doubt a game-changer and the best film of 2009. I think in years to come people will talk about it the way they first experienced Star Wars.


10 out of 10 for sure!
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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:58 pm 
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I seen this last night and while its a massive leap in terms of technical ability in terms of story line and character development its average to above average the joke name of dances with smurfs is pretty bang on

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:41 pm 
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I'm kinda in the middle between you two guys....

We clearly all agree that technically it's a masterpiece and is really going to change both the expectations of cinema going audiences and (I hope) the understanding in the movie industry of what can be achieved.

Story-wise... well no, it's not anything new or original, but then since when has that ever been a surprise for Hollywood :wink:

I'm mostly with Zos in that it was well executed and well plotted. Some of the story development felt a little ham fisted and more could have been made of the central characters changing perceptions and values (trying to avoid spoilers here) but at an already significant 2hr40 they would have needed to trim elsewhere and I don't actually feel there was much fat to trim.

Was it perfect?.. no, pretty much no film is, but it was a smoothly executed story present in an amazing visual way.... I can see the parallels which would get it the unofficial title mentioned by Mess :D

As a side comment for anybody wondering, I actually felt that 3D (as I saw it in) probably *didn't* really add to the film. It's not like it was a bad thing, but frankly I suspect it would have looked just as amazing and mindblowing in standard 2D.

Would definitely recommend it.

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:18 am 
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It was my first 3D flick and while yes it was impressive I'm not sure much of that was down to the 3D aspect in fact i found the way they would make things out of focus to help create the illusion rather disconcerting you couldn't look around the scene and take in many of the little details because it was a blur which seamed a shame but i suppose that's a limit of the tech and not the film makers fault.

?Going back to character development and hopefully no letting slip spoilers the central characters change in view was ok and was probably the best bit of progression in the film it was more the support characters that struck me as very 2 dimensional and bland

The drill Sargent was a jerk from the get go and there was no meat to his character.

The CEO / corporate guy was also clearly a moron from the get go and the film could probably have been made without the inclusion of him

The tree hugging scientist woman who's name escapes me was ok but either a) she hadn't bothered to tell any one about here research or b) whoever she told it to has the IQ of a park a bench
spoilerish bit"hey there's this planet and its basically a big ass organic computer" tell that to some one like bill gates and head be cloning it before you could fish the sentence end of spoilerish bit

but all in all yes good film needed more originality but as you said ebon its Hollywood cant have kick ass FX and good story in the same film.

On a side note i give it 3 months before we have a avatar cartoon on TV unfortunately it'll be made probably by Disney and be a load of crap and miss all the Eco friendly tree hugging love your neighbor don't go taking things that aren't yours messages that the film had in it. Which is a shame as there seems to be a general lack of kids cartoons with good undertones. There all see bad guy smash bad guy good guy wins while avatar could be captain planet for a new generation.




Who am i kidding Captain planet?!?! yes i just know how that creative meeting went "ok every one name a element"
"Um fire"
"er Water"
"Earth"
"oh wind" (insert fart joke here)
"Oh bugger we were gonna have a cast of 5 never mind well just drop the other Kid)
"Oh what about hart"
"hart? don't think that's a element bob"
"sure it is it will let the wielder talk to animals ans stuff"
BANG!!!!! (bob dies for a stupid idea and we get captain planet with 4 elements)

Alas the last bit didn't happen and Bob got his love element :(

Oh um sorry side tracked i now return you to your normal thread involving hot smurf loving or something.

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:31 am 
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Thanks for the reviews guys. I can't wait to see this, but as i live away from my family i don't have a babysitter. One question then. Apart from it being very long, which is my main concern...is there anything in it that isnt suitable for Jasmine to see? She's nearly 9 years old and is pretty broad minded already.

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:18 pm 
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I would say probably not though its a 12A its very much on the kiddie side of things its probably far more kiddie friendly than the likes of the spider man movies

the only bits i can really think of are the night scene which has some scaryish creatures (think angry grey hounds) and there's a couple of death scenes which may be a bit sad but if she watches dr who there probably no worse.

In fact because its largely animated and even though the effects are amazing you can still tell its animated it moves a lot of the drama (deaths, battles,etc etc) into the realms of cartoons.

*Edit*
Having a think im possibly not the best person to listen to for a is it suitable for kids review as i was watching things like Alien and predator long before i should.

you could take a look at http://www.commonsensemedia.org/movie-reviews its a family based review site that dosent go through the entire plot in the process of giving the review the members reviews are probably the most helpful when it comes to deciding.

If you want more detail you could look at http://www.kids-in-mind.com/ but it pretty much dissects the film down to every detail so you'll know the entire plot before you go.

the only thing both sites seem to obsess over is that fact that the aliens are pretty much naked but there naked in the same way you see naked people in those national geographic / discovery channel documentaries It would have been weird if the were all wearing nike T-shirts,

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:31 am 
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While I do agree that the story was not the most complex ever seen in cinema, I argue that exactly its simplicity makes it so powerful and compelling. Also, it is more complex and multi-layered than any other Cameron-film I can think of.

The 3D is probably not necessary for the film to blow your mind, I will certainly see it several times more in 2D, so once I have done this, I can confirm it.

As for the violence, there is a lot of shooting and people die, but no close-ups, splattering of blood or gore. The partial nudity I can say should be kid-safe - but you may want to check the sites MESS recommended.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here follow some mild spoilers and then some hidden real ones:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


As to the characters, I entirely disagree with MESS, I have to say.
The colonel I thought was simply supercool - even though I knew he was the antagonist. Also, he was not simply "evil" - he had a job to do no matter what; and he was looking after his people. From his standpoint he was correct - which makes him a far more interesting "villain" than most I have seen in a long time.
Also many of the soldiers were not portrayed as simply evil - they were mostly just ignorant and felt threatened - look at films with the soldiers stationed in Iraq, you find similar people.

The corporate guy was not overly stupid, he was just arrogant, he had his priorities ("shareholder value") and he stuck to them. I have met many just like him in my time working for big companies - he is an absolutely realistic manager type?

Also I have to disagree with you on Dr. Augustine - she had no proof of the theorie you mentioned and no established scientist would publicise such an outrageous idea just like that. And when things turned really bad, it was already too late - plus the corporation controlled the communication, so a report like this would never have reached the Bill Gates of the time. So no, I can see no stupidity there.



*************
SPOILERS
*************
The real masterstroke of the film as opposed to many others I have seen in the past is that I really cared for the "people" and the world they lived in.
I have to admit that there were tears in my eyes when they killed Hometree - the scene itself and the reaction of the (let's not forget computer-generated!) "people" was simply heart-breaking. Makes me choke up even thinking about it now.
This is not just good special effects, although the animation helps of course, it is a concise story well-told with characters you really care about.

I still maintain that Avatar - while not perfect - is a masterpiece that in time will be taking its place as a milestone in film-history.


Cheers
Zos

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:33 pm 
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Something to note Zos is even though the aliens were computer generated they weren't there facial features were all mapped to the actors that played them (leading me to play name that actor for most of the film) so much of that emotion you were seeing was probably taken from the actors them self then of course you have the sound track which is really what manipulates your emotional state when watching a film if they were to re do the scene you mention with something like The Ride Of The Valkyries. But yes as it plays its a very good scene

as to Dr. Augustine and her theory it was clearly far enuff along for her to be testing it on a small scale also i used bill gates because he would be the man in charge of the corporation entities like Microsoft become as big as they do because they can see and exploit the least little thing the idea that the operation in avatar went to all the trouble of 6 months of space flight just to mine ore seems stretching it far more likely they would be looking to exploit every thing on the planet to once again compare it to the real world

the films stuck with the idea that the humans want the ore so go in grab the ore and destroy everything else in the process which has massive parallels with the hole native Americans thing.

except this is supposed to be the future and there looking at a entire planet of potential resources drug companies pay good money as it is for research in places like the Amazon.

All in all its just to simple for me they could have done much more with the story and its depth as when i look at it i see something that's no more complicated than transformers (one faction wants something and is willing to destroy to get it) maybe its because it was in production for so long (10 years or so) the idea just seemed to have went a little stale.

On the upside it was nice to see a film that didn't have set up for a sequel stamped all over the ending

Quote:
I still maintain that Avatar - while not perfect - is a masterpiece that in time will be taking its place as a milestone in film-history.


I suspect your right on that account its like toy story it represents a mile stone now what i really want to see is what other directors do with the tech.

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:09 pm 
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Mess wrote:
Something to note Zos is even though the aliens were computer generated they weren't there facial features were all mapped to the actors that played them (leading me to play name that actor for most of the film) so much of that emotion you were seeing was probably taken from the actors them self then of course


Yes, but the animated construct had to be able to match the expression - which in the past did not work. So it is still a technological marvel. ;)


Mess wrote:
as to Dr. Augustine and her theory it was clearly far enuff along for her to be testing it on a small scale also i used bill gates because he would be the man in charge of the corporation entities like Microsoft become as big as they do because they can see and exploit the least little thing the idea that the operation in avatar went to all the trouble of 6 months of space flight just to mine ore seems stretching it far more likely they would be looking to exploit every thing on the planet to once again compare it to the real world


When did she test it? All she did was take samples, as I recall.
Granted, but this mineral was just so valuable that it out-shone a possible biological computer - plus it is doubtful that this computer would have been interesting enough short-term. After all, the tech they have in the film is very advanced already.


Mess wrote:
the films stuck with the idea that the humans want the ore so go in grab the ore and destroy everything else in the process which has massive parallels with the hole native Americans thing.
Mess wrote:

except this is supposed to be the future and there looking at a entire planet of potential resources drug companies pay good money as it is for research in places like the Amazon.

Mess wrote:
All in all its just to simple for me they could have done much more with the story and its depth as when i look at it i see something that's no more complicated than transformers (one faction wants something and is willing to destroy to get it)


Here I disagree strongly - to compare the plot of Avatar with the colourful nothing that is "Transformers" is simply an insult to the film. The humans in Avatar have considerably more believable motivations (and different reasons for doing what they do) than just "being evil" and destroying Prime.
We will just have to agree to disagree on this point! :D

Zos

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:23 am 
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I'll check out those sites Mess, thanks [icon-xmas/icon_wink.gif]

I'm still not sure if Jasmine will sit through it as it's sp long, but maybe after the excitement of Christmas has gone she might want to go [icon-xmas/icon_biggrin.gif]

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:35 pm 
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Note: Contains spoilers...


Finally watched the film earlier today and I have to say my thoughts about the film are closer to Mess'.

There's no doubt that the film is a visual masterpiece, planet Pandora is very well-created, it's so real and beautiful. As well as Na'vis, natives of Pandora, are so realistic that after some point it's like actors wearing make-up.

However, the plot is very poor in my opinion. I, personally, get easily distracted from a movie when I find something illogical or wrong about its plot. Ok, I know that what I say here sounds weird, I mean, how can one expect logic from a science-fiction movie since it is, well, fiction. But Avatar tries its hardest to make the audience think that everything in the movie is real and logical.

For instance, humans are in Pandora for a mineral, but why? For energy? But they're able to build giant spaceships capable of flying for 5 months. I mean they don't even talk about this mineral issue much (we only know that it's very valuable & expensive) as if they want the audience not to question the reason behind humans' interest in Pandora. It's like they're there to attack Na'vis, and the mineral is the reason, that's it...

Or, they create organic Na'vi bodies and use machines to control them matrix-style, however, how is it possible to create an organic body/clone without mind? Say it's possible, how does the body live/breaths when the controller is unplugged? Reflex? Way too complicated to me...

And if humans are advanced enough to travel great distance in space, it is too silly to see them attacking with hundreds of ground troops and fighter crafts when they should be able to attack from orbit or nuke the location which is way cheaper :). I personnaly felt treated like a child there...

Other than this, the plot is nothing unique, the hero joins a different society, meets a girl (and it's always the daughter of the society's president), the boy and the girl disputes for something insignificant, then they're reunited as the hero saves the day. By the way, the hero is a chosen one, achieves something very difficult which was only done by the legends of the society etc...

Avatar is a good movie and I recommend it, but I'm sorry Zos, I wouldn't put it into Starwars category, wouldn't even try to compare the two...

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:05 am 
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You seriously consider Star Wars to be logical, concise and possessing a strong and original story? :D I love the old trilogy dearly, don't get me wrong, but in terms of internal logic, character strength and plot they cannot even begin to compare.
*picks up the gauntlet*

I agree it does not compare to Star Wars, it is simply infinitely better! :D

About the mineral, may I remind you that the Spanish travelled for months, risking heavy losses to disease and thirst, to get Gold from the US?
Same thing here, this mineral is simply essential and to me at least it is irrelevant what it is needed for. I for one am content with the explanation "this little chunk sells for so many millions".

Creating these avatar bodies without a mind should not be too tricky if you have taken gene-splicing to the level they had. If you question that, please explain StarTrek's transporters - our scientists pretty much agree that they cannot possibly work because of the laws of physics. :)

Finally, if a technically superior power always wins, how do you explain Vietnam? :twisted: The humans simply underestimated the Navi, and more importantly they did not consider that the planet itself would attack them. To be fair, I do not blame them for that ... :)

Your play ... ;)
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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:08 pm 
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Luke Skywalker can move objects with his mind, because he is a Jedi. Jedis are facts in Starwars' fictional world, that's why it matches the plot. Just like transporters in StarTrek. As I said, I accept that Avatar is a fiction as well, however, it's closer to today in terms of humans and their technology, that's why I question it. I didn't give those example to open a discussion but to point out my views.

Another thought though, if humans have the technology to create empty organic bodies, why don't they clone their soldiers and control them from distance to avoid casualties?

Btw, correction to my previous message, humans travel 5 years to reach Pandora instead of 5 months, so it takes 10 years to bring the mineral to Earth, which makes the reason behind the attack on Pandora even weaker...

Quote:
I agree it does not compare to Star Wars, it is simply infinitely better!

I don't feel a need to comment here. We're talking about a movie, and everyone is expressing their view, however, some of us take it personal. I wouldn't compare Avatar and Starwars simply because I do not consider them in the same category, this doesn't mean that Avatar is worse than Starwars, but for you it's the comment above...

Quote:
Finally, if a technically superior power always wins, how do you explain Vietnam? The humans simply underestimated the Navi, and more importantly they did not consider that the planet itself would attack them. To be fair, I do not blame them for that ...

No comment here either, Vietnam example is just not strong enough when we compare spacecrafts against arrows...

To me, Avatar is Pocahontas in space and in 3D, here's the plot summary of Pocahontas:

Capt. John Smith leads a rag-tag band of English sailors & soldiers to the New World to plunder its riches for England (or, more precisely, for Governor Ratcliffe, who comes along for the ride). Meanwhile, in this "New World," Chief Powhatan has pledged his daughter, Pocahontas, to be married to the village's greatest warrior. Pocahontas, however, has other ideas. She has seen a vision of a spinning arrow, a vision she believes tells her change is coming. Her life does indeed change when the English ship lands near her village. Between Ratcliffe, who believes the "savages" are hiding the gold he expected to be plentiful, and Powhatan, who believes these pale newcomers will destroy their land, Smith and Pocahontas have a difficult time preventing all-out war, and saving their love for each other.

and I still recommend it...

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:56 pm 
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Blastor wrote:
As I said, I accept that Avatar is a fiction as well, however, it's closer to today in terms of humans and their technology, that's why I question it. I didn't give those example to open a discussion but to point out my views.

That is fair enough - but if you criticise the film because of these, then I feel it is fair to defend it by pointing out the possible gaps in the argument.
But point taken, I shall drop this part. ;)

Blastor wrote:
Another thought though, if humans have the technology to create empty organic bodies, why don't they clone their soldiers and control them from distance to avoid casualties?

It would even be better to remote-control the big battle-suits, even more effective. But the answer to that is easy - it would be way too pricey! The fact that they just leave the veteran retire and live in a wheelchair shows that they do not care much about human life if it costs them. Humans are a cheap resource though, especially in the bad economy implied in the film.

Blastor wrote:
Btw, correction to my previous message, humans travel 5 years to reach Pandora instead of 5 months, so it takes 10 years to bring the mineral to Earth, which makes the reason behind the attack on Pandora even weaker...

Not really, as long as they kept up a continuous stream of supply ships from the day they started mining, it is still viable - and even more so if this stuff is as vital to their technology as it seems to be.

Blastor wrote:
Quote:
I agree it does not compare to Star Wars, it is simply infinitely better!

I don't feel a need to comment here. We're talking about a movie, and everyone is expressing their view, however, some of us take it personal. I wouldn't compare Avatar and Starwars simply because I do not consider them in the same category, this doesn't mean that Avatar is worse than Starwars, but for you it's the comment above ...

Here I have to apologize - I misunderstood what you were saying when you said they weren't in the same category. I thought you meant in terms of quality but now I understand you meant they are different kinds of film.

Mea culpa.


But I still bet you a dinner that 10, 20 years from now people will talk of Avatar the same way that they do about Star Wars now - as a film who changed the industry.

Blastor wrote:
No comment here either, Vietnam example is just not strong enough when we compare spacecrafts against arrows ...

Actually there were only two spacecrafts in the film - the sleeper ship that brought them to Pandora and the shuttle they rigged up as a bomb. And neither of them was a military ship.
So it was gunships copters vs. huge flying lizards and big robots vs. rhinos on steroids. So overall I found the outcome quite realistic.

And if you accept - as I do - midget teddy bears winning against energy cannons and high-tech walking tanks, neither of us can really complain here.

Blastor wrote:
To me, Avatar is Pocahontas in space and in 3D, here's the plot summary of Pocahontas:
Funny you should say that - because this is exactly the description Cameron used when he pitched the film to the studio. So it would be foolish of me to argue there.
This is simply a new take on an old story, just like Star Wars re-uses elements from - for example - the Artus legend. This does not have to be bad though, does it?

I would argue that at least in the last 20 years there were only maybe a handful of truly new and original stories, if that. So better an imaginative re-imagination of an old tale than a bad new one.

Blastor wrote:
and I still recommend it ...

And just to be sure I am making myself clear - I do love StarWars dearly, I just see Avatar as the natural successor - a new milestone in film history.

Maybe I am a bit blind to its weaknesses, but it is just years that I felt such a sense of wonder in the cinema, so I am more than a bit partial to it. ;)


Cheers
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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:23 pm 
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I have now officially seen the film (In IMAX 3D) And I can just say that I was blown away by the digital soundness of both the quality of the film and it's plot.

I mean wow.
James Cameron certainly brought up my expectations then made them do a barrel roll a couple of times. The screen was literally shaking when explosions were going off.

FffffILovedIt! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:11 am 
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I'm glad you loved the film as much as I did!

But I am curious, the fact that big blue kittys were the protagonists had nothing to do with it? :D

Zos

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:22 pm 
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Zoser wrote:
Creating these avatar bodies without a mind should not be too tricky if you have taken gene-splicing to the level they had. If you question that, please explain StarTrek's transporters - our scientists pretty much agree that they cannot possibly work because of the laws of physics. :)


The thing about the laws of Physics though is there not set in stone and change over time and then you have things like quantum mechanics which trump laws other laws. Also need i mention bee's and there ability to fly?

Zoser wrote:
Finally, if a technically superior power always wins, how do you explain Vietnam? :twisted: The humans simply underestimated the Navi, and more importantly they did not consider that the planet itself would attack them. To be fair, I do not blame them for that ... :)

Your play ... ;)
Zos



This is my number one problem with the film the battle was fought like a Nam the humans fought the Na'vi on home growned and gave the Na'vi all the advantages any half competent commander should have spotted the disadvantages they were up aghest from the get go.

Even if a nuke was out of the question because it mite damage the mineral there are plenty of other current methods that could have been used going back to Nam for a second Napalm or the future equivalent would have worked better than a ground assault or bombardment before ground assault or (and they used this phrase in the film) daisy cutters all these methods would have worked better than there ground assault.

Now something else that's bugged me since watching the film arms and the Na'vis lack of them every creature we saw on Pandora had six limbs yet the Na'vi did not.

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:31 am 
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True, if they had Napalm, they probably would have used it - but they encountered a "primitive" civilisation and figured they could keep it down with guns and explosives.

And to go and destroy the Tree of Souls, they needed to go into the area it stood in (which actually would have been the same with using Napalm) - so there was no tactical blunder at all. Plus keep in mind that until Eiwa sent in every creature in the area as cavalry, the colonel's plan worked perfectly.

Zos


P.S. Although I know that financial success and quality do not _have_ to go together (as you know, I believe they definitely do this time), I am still happy that Avatar is now officially the second highest grossing film of all time.

Well done, Mr. Cameron - now sitting on positions 1 and 2! :)

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:39 pm 
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Zoser wrote:

And to go and destroy the Tree of Souls, they needed to go into the area it stood in (which actually would have been the same with using Napalm) - so there was no tactical blunder at all. Plus keep in mind that until Eiwa sent in every creature in the area as cavalry, the colonel's plan worked perfectly.

Zos


Other than the horrendous loses it was working it would still have been far safer to bomb the tree from a higher altitude even if they didn't get the tree directly the devastation caused by the bombing would have be massive and since the Na'vi are so connected with the planet very demoralising

It was just to close to Nam / Cowboy and Indians war movies for me to treat it as this stand out piece of film making even the Na'vi were a pretty standard cat person type creature design very humanoid very easy to relate to.

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:14 am 
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Dropping a makeshift bomb from higher altitude without line of sight and instruments to guide it? It would have exploded miles away without destroying the tree - which would only have riled the Na'vi up some more.
And then, a couple of days later, they would have over-run the outpost - the whole thing was pretty much an action out of desperation.

The Na'vi design is of course a matter of taste - I found their design amazing and their culture believable and interesting. But of course they had to look human enough, as the audience needed to emphasize with them - which wouldn't have worked, had they been purple blob monsters or something like that ...

Zos

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:06 pm 
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Zoser wrote:
Dropping a makeshift bomb from higher altitude without line of sight and instruments to guide it? It would have exploded miles away without destroying the tree - which would only have riled the Na'vi up some more.
And then, a couple of days later, they would have over-run the outpost - the whole thing was pretty much an action out of desperation.


Which go's back to the point of it being a badly exicuted military action from the get go each and every step of military action taken was from a tatics point of veiw terible and from my point of veiw just made the CO guy more and more 1 dimensional.


Zoser wrote:
The Na'vi design is of course a matter of taste - I found their design amazing and their culture believable and interesting. But of course they had to look human enough, as the audience needed to emphasize with them - which wouldn't have worked, had they been purple blob monsters or something like that ...

Zos


Not true a lot of story telling can be done useing facial expresion alone they could have been giant purple blob monsters but as long as they had some kind of basic expresion you would have had some lvl of empathy with them which can then be manipulated with the corect sound track dont belive me? go watch flubber and tell me you feel nothing for the little green ball of goo (or the robot for that matter) or how about batteries not included those little robots had almost zero human features but could elisit emotion. but of course the closer to human the creature is the easyer it is for the human brain to form empathy with it (well unless its at that point of being not just quite right and then it weirds people out) but to my veiw what they did was lazy they put all that effort into Pandora and wildlife/fona and then gave us the Na'Vi which are just blue cat people. as for culture from what we got to see of it it seemed very much a pic and mix of national gegraphic living with tribe X programing.

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:46 am 
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Badly executed military operations are a re-occurring theme in human history (just ask Varus who lost 3 legions against Arminius or General Custer), so this was very realistic.

And this would not really have been the colonel's fault - he just had to make do with what he was given. Oh, and also this was not a military operation, it was a corporate venture and they hired whatever they thought would be necessary.
Speaking as someone working for a big corporation myself, they would not spend more money than they had to - so anyone suggesting hiring orbital bombers to suppress primitive natives would quickly lose his position.

As for the Na'vi, I cannot see anything lazy in their design- they are humanoid, true, but also undeniably alien. But I believe this is more a matter of personal taste than an instance where we can logically argue the point.


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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:28 am 
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I'm just kinda surprised you two are still banging on about this :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:50 am 
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It's a fun discussion - and it is rare that MESS and I have such a different opinion on something. So I am enjoying it.

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:38 pm 
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well its entertaining.

I'm not convinced on the cost thing 1 bomber compared to all that man power and air craft i would reckon a single bomber is cheaper (even working on the assumption that human life = cheep)

While badly executed military operations run through history there are also lots and lots of well executed operations. further most bad military operations result from one force underestimating the other which considering the long speech on how Pandora was a good looking death trap with pretty much everything capable of killing a human as soon as look at it (the air included) I mean they new the Na'vi were dangerous. yet when it came to military (or cooperate in this case) action they reverted to I have a gun they have a bow ill win mentality it didn't gel for me its like reading up about a cobra and then sticking your bare hand in its cage to pat it.

also the Na'vi and there design its clearly cat person inspired of that there can be no doubt and there clearly humanoid 2 arms 2 legs head all connected to central trunk 2 eyes 2 ears nose mouth hair then look at every other creature we see on Pandora they don't fit to me they stuck out like a sore thumb (which they also had) they (to me at least) seem alien to Pandora the only thing the had in common with the rest of the animals was that weird USB jack thing but even then they only had a single one while everything else had 2

Yea I know im being picky but for all the hype Avatar revived i was looking for perfection and instead i got dances with smurfs in 3D

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:53 pm 
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I just remembered another good reason for the similarity between the Na'vi and the humans - they would have had to drop the whole love story or risk it becoming involuntarily comical.

Plus I found the subtle differences between the avatars and the natives fun - 4 digits instead of 5, different foot shape and eyebrows.

I do not believe that perfection is possible, people simply differ too much in their opinions on what is good and what is bad - as our discussion nicely demonstrates.
While you were disappointed by it, To me this is still the best film Cameron ever made and I cannot wait for the next one(s), but I do not claim for a second that is objective.

Actually I was surprised to find out that even a film that is an accepted masterpiece, 2001, was considered "rubbish" by one of my workmates. If people even dis Kubrik, what chance does Cameron have? :)

Zos

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 3:51 pm 
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I have to admit, I very much see where Mess is coming from.

Physiologically the Na'vi are out of place... there are significant differences between them and every other lifeform we see on Pandora. It's not plausable that they evolved in the same environment (which is a shame, as the environment as a whole was interesting and varied enough to be convincing)

That's not to knock the film.. i'm used by now to suspending my disbelief heavily... but it is a valid point (and answering that with 'they would have had to ditch the love story' isn't really an answer at all.. I expect people creating fiction to build internal consistency. I'm often disappointed, but it's still something I expect)

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:04 pm 
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Zoser wrote:

Actually I was surprised to find out that even a film that is an accepted masterpiece, 2001, was considered "rubbish" by one of my workmates. If people even dis Kubrik, what chance does Cameron have? :)

Zos


Oh :o

"files veiws on Kubric and 2001 away for a much later date"

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:09 pm 
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Ebon Hawk wrote:
That's not to knock the film.. i'm used by now to suspending my disbelief heavily... but it is a valid point (and answering that with 'they would have had to ditch the love story' isn't really an answer at all.. I expect people creating fiction to build internal consistency. I'm often disappointed, but it's still something I expect)



I suspect this is at the core of my disappointment with Avatar while I'm more than happy to let a film substitute its version of reality for my own and ill even forgive them when they leave glaring errors its a sliding scale throw away Pop corn munching action fest gets a lot of lea way and can have plot holes the size of trucks and ill still enjoy it but films that are supposed to be masterpieces of cinematography that were TEN years in the making get very little room to maneuver for ten years of development i want near rock solid iron clad internal logic if there's something that looks iffy i want it explaining even if its just brushed over i at least want it mentioned.

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:10 pm 
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Location: Istanbul
Watched the movie again in Imax, I first watched it in a regular 3D cinema, and contributed to their income. And this time, it was even more amazing on a giant screen, wow, I mean, how Pandora is very well-designed, every little detail of the environment and each creature. As well as the animation, at some point I see Navis as actors wearing make-up, instead of 3D animations.

This is definitively very hardwork and patience, and I really appreaciate that. The film is a masterpiece in terms of these aspects.

However, the plot and how it's put into the screen has nothing special. Ok, it's not bad, but it's not a masterpiece either. After watching the movie twice I can't find any particular scene which I'll consider special, such as Darth Vader vs. Obi-Wan, or Darth Vader saying to Luke "I am your father" :), or everytime Agent Smith's saying "Mr. Anderson" :). Ok, lame examples but I hope you can see what I mean here. All I'll remember from Avatar is how it was visually amazing.

I also thought about what if I watched Starwars 1 (with baby Vader) as 3D in Imax? City landscapes, space fights, giant sea creatures and that craft race would surely look amazing too. Or Matrix in 3D, all those fight scenes, thousands of drones attacking Zion, fight between Neo and Smith in the rain etc...

Did I say 3D a lot, hmm, my bad :)...

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