THE INTREPIDS & THE INSTITUTION WEBPAGE

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:08 am 
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Thanks for the feedback guys. I have to stress I really enjoyed reading all the posts/comments in your thread here Zos. A couple of small follow-ups:
Mess wrote:
... the idea of a living planet is so very very old I've come across the idea numerous times in other works of fiction its just not really new from the moment they mentioned the trees having a symbiotic relationship i just knew the planet was going to turn round and bight the humans.

That's true Mess. I agree. But I actually believe it's true, not just a fable. The symbiotic nature of all life on Earth and the possibilities that we are somehow connected (on a subconscious level), I mean. And whereas the 'idea' isn't new there's plenty of interesting science out there indicating that this is, in fact, a very real possibility. I often worry that this kind of thing isn't taught in schools (that I know of). The reason for this is almost definitely that 'they' don't want us to believe this, that we would all stand up and protest just that little bit more about the ravaging of our natural (and spiritual) resources - by the very same corporations that sponsor our 'elected' representatives.

As an aside, I've noticed a sharp decrease in spiritual content in the UK media over the last few years and disproportionate increase in 'bible-bashing' atheistic content. None of these happen by chance. It's a very worrying and cynical trend. And 'they' worry that our morals are slipping? I don't think so.

So I think it's great that Cameron can take this kind of content and wrap a great visual-effects masterpiece around it for a new generation. I'm pretty sure this is why the film is generating the kinds of audience it is. Your average Joe, around the world it seems, appears to be more in tune with Avatar's main symphony than many professionals realise. This would seem to include a lot or professional film critics - who should know better. I suspect they simply watch too many movies. :)

Zos wrote:
... The only part I disagree with you X is the "warlike" bit - I argue that the Na'vi are not warlike at all...

I know what you mean too Zos (and Ebon). And I agree in general that the Na’vi aren’t very warlike – compared to humans at least but they have warriors classes (instead of just hunters). One of the Na’vi warriors brags early in the movie that he could kill Jake ‘easily’. These aren’t very symbiotic characteristics. They are also very good at snarling, taunting, goading and a lot of other very human, warlike characteristics. I just think that Cameron’s main overture might have been more effective (but less dramatic) if he had used the Na’vi to show that there is another option – that they only way to fight fire is not with more fire. The movie would have been far less blockbuster-like if he’d pushed these ideas too far so on balance I’m sure Cameron would have rather had more people watching this movie than less.

And if that ends up helping all of us (and our children) then the world has got to be just that little better for it.

PS This reminds me as you guys argued the point earlier: Has there ever been a ‘brainy blockbuster’? The only example I can think of is something like Ghandi . It makes me want to dig out a list of all the top-grossing blockbusters and to see if this isn’t just a contradiction in terms. Then it would be great to discuss which movies you guys do consider to be real ‘masterpieces’? Another thread for another day I suspect.

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:37 am 
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I know what you mean, X, but the idea was always that Pandora was as beautiful as it is deadly - and it is the most beautiful world I have ever seen! :D
So there would be a need for a warrior caste to ensure survival - in this world absolutely peaceful beings would not have a hope to survive as a species.

And let's not forget that "eat or be eaten" is a part of Nature as well - Eywa is not an all-peaceful mother, but she can be a real bitch at times (Panthersaurus, anyone? *eg*), so in such hostile an environment aggression is an essential character trait.
Plus having them too peaceful would have made them victims and watered down the film too much - I believe they are perfect the way they are now.

As I see it, the Na'vi would not ever start a fight, but they sure as hell will make sure to end one if it is brought to them. :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:44 am 
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Zoser wrote:
... in this world absolutely peaceful beings would not have a hope to survive as a species.

Are you talking Pandora or Planet Earth here Zos?

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:00 am 
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It is true for either, I'm afraid ... :(

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:09 am 
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Sounds to me like you're siding with the General, Zos. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:12 am 
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While I think that Colonel Quaritch is one of the coolest characters in the film, I would be firmly on the side of the Na'vi - always have. :)

Was more trying to explain why the Na'vi could not realistically be totally non-violent considering their environment.

Zos

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:28 am 
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I'm not sure Zos. I would vere towards agreeing with Mess's concerns of plot consistency on this one:
Zoser wrote:
... [I] Was more trying to explain why the Na'vi could not realistically be totally non-violent considering their environment.

I'd rather assumed that a major point of the story was that Pandora had evolved a greater symbiotic existence than us pathetic, warlike infidels have. And this movie was about 'corporatism' vs 'naturalism', 'take everything you need' vs 'share everything you need', etc. With the Na'vi not falling into either camp fully then the movie does seem to support fighting fire with fire and hitting them faster than they can hit us. This seems to be the endless problem with humanity.

Is Cameron deliberately supporing this view? Or did he only go as far as realising that great fights make great movie endings and so sod the philosphy, get the choppers in!

I'm sure it was the latter and the right commercial/entertainment decision - but for me it is still the only slightly jarring kink to the storyline. Would love to see/hear Mess's views on that - as he was the main critic of the movie.

X

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:41 am 
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Quote:
I'd rather assumed that a major point of the story was that Pandora had evolved a greater symbiotic existence than us pathetic, warlike infidels have.


Yes, that they have. From what I could take from the total absence of fortifications and the way the film progressed, the Na'vi existed in a world without war until the humans arrived.

So the concept of attacking because someone has more than the other seems alien to them - which makes the Na'vi morally a very advanced species.
They did not attack pre-emptively, but only when the humans destroyed their home - which IMHO is a very valid response.

Also you have to consider that the humans had been killing off Na'vi on a regular basis for quite a while - this is being alluded to several times in the film.
So they are a very peaceful species that only stands and fights once there is no other option.

Pandora though is not just one big happy hippy-commune - there are predators and beasties that are hunted. So there is a sense of "survival of the fittest", but not the kinds of greedy low attacks human history is littered with.

There can be no doubt at all that the Na'vi do have the moral high ground here.

Zos

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:54 am 
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So no standing in front of the tanks with flowers in your hair for Zos and the Na'vi then. I'll have to make sure I have my full quota of grenades, bazoocas and assault rifles next time we meet Zos. :wink:

I still think this is a relative weakness in the story - but not the action.

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:29 pm 
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:P Do you think that Quaritch would have been deterred by flower-bearing Na'vi? He blasted the tree to smithereens while it was still occupied by practically unarmed people.

Again, I do not see it as a weakness really, they were with their backs to the wall and did what was necessary. And they did not - as humans would have done - use the myth of Turuk Makto to create a huge Na'vi empire in the end.

Zos

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:48 pm 
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Zos, it is just a story. It didn't really happen. :lol:

When I say I think it's a relative weakness I mean that a better plot point/story idea would have been for the Na'vi to find and a wiser, more natural solution to their predicament. This would have to a very surprising outcome given their circumstances "in the story" - but only if James Cameron really wanted to dramatise that particular aspect of the confict "in the story".

Plainly he didn't. And I can't quite imagine an equally dramatic but peaceful resolution either* - but that's the kind of thing that does make stories absolute classics - rather than merely great technical (and artistic) dramatic events.

*Although there are plenty of natural events that would have easily destroyed those choppers. A huge gust of wind could probably have blown them over. A sandstorm usually works great in the retro-blade type helicopters. A well-directed lightning storm could probably take all the electronics out pretty quickly. The odd well-placed giant earth worm or two could have been nice. But I would still love to have seen the Hometree use it's own spores/chemicals somehow.

EDIT: boggy quicksand is also great for slowing down giant robots, the Darlek solution.

Maybe Cameron tried those but found choppers better suited to the CGI engine. :wink:

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Last edited by MrX on Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:08 pm 
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Bah, next you are going to tell me that the Na'vi are just computer-generated creatures! :P

In the end of the day Cameron probably decided for whatever looked better or more dramatic on screen rather than asking "what would Gandhi do". :D

Either way, we agree where it matters, so I am content. :)

Zos

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:40 pm 
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Actually now that I have thought about for more than two minutes - and let's face it Cameron had 14 years and $300mn to come up with something - I really like the idea that nature could have fought back - naturally.

I can imagine the initial wave of choppers mercilessly and relentlessly advancing through the jungle towards Hometree. It seems an impossible position for the Na'vi. All alone and with only bows & arrows to fend for themselves. It’s not fair. It's not human! It's ...

... wait a minute, some of ground robots have ploughed blindly into a boggy area of quicksand. I'm sure that wasn't there earlier. A slow-moving root coils out of the quicksand encircling the robots screen, pulling the pathetic solider into the bog, giant arms flailing hopelessly side to side, dragging the giant machine down. A close up of Hometree's extended root system shows the tree pumping millions of gallons of sticky, globby water out to it's perimeters. Everywhere we can see now robots are becoming enmeshed in giant roots and tentacles. Even the ordinary foot soldiers are struggling - and looking scared. Beatles, snakes and insects of every kind and colour are now emerging from adn through the waters, canopies and tree trunks. What use is a machine gun against a million moving creatures and tree roots? On the horizon a small cloud amasses in a most beautiful and ever-changing shape. It's no gas cloud. It's a huge swarm of tiny insects. The cloud tumbles and twists in on itself moving like a huge swarm of swallows. They descend on the giant choppers and flying machines.

"Evacuate. Evacuate" screams the Colonel.

Now we're even. Now we can see who's really tough against Mother Nature. Who can compete with a sentient and fast-moving natural system that is Pandora? The Na'vi take their time to pick-off the falling, stranded soldiers. It becomes a bow and arrow duck shoot. And it's the pathetic soldiers who are the ducks. Each and every one of them ends their life in a terrible and tortured way.

The Colonel could still survive to the end. He looked like he had turned and ran – scared to death but determined to live another day. Except. He’s not fleeing at all. He’s moving in on Jack Scully’s cabin – a very nice element to the whole story by the way. Can Jack’s Na’vi stop him now? This is the one-on-one climax we’ve been waiting for. It still seems an impossible task but ... of course ... [copy and paste the original script from here].

Final closing shots of the movie could be the base and all the equipment slowly sinking into the natural waters/bogs surrounding the whole of Pandora. Mother Nature gradually re-asserts its control as it always will.

Que: Avatar 2: The fight back. Even bigger machines, hovercrafts, more guns, bigger guns, new venom and new problems. Can Nature triumph that? We’ll have to wait and see.

X

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:50 pm 
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While I love the scene you are conjuring up there - and I would certainly want to see that film - it would require a slightly different approach to how nature works on Pandora.

Cameron seems to have gone with the idea that the trees, while interconnected to form a giant brain, are otherwise still trees who by design cannot move.

Had he changed that, he would be accused of ripping off LotR together with what he is already accused of: Dances with Wolves, Pocahontas and Dune. Plus there were animals enough to deal with the humans in this case - so changing the entire ecosystem with a freshly created quicksand-field may have been a bit excessive.

Again, it might have worked, so I am not shooting the idea down. I think I leave some room now for MESS or Blast to say something, should they decide to enter the fray once more ... :D


Zos

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:18 am 
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Looks like we've safely killed off interest in this thread now Zos. :D

Let's continue on our own:

Zoser wrote:
...Cameron seems to have gone with the idea that the trees, while interconnected to form a giant brain, are otherwise still trees who by design cannot move.


So trees and plants don't move on Pandora? Errr no. They were moving pretty darn fast, just as they can do on Earth - but just not in the idiotic way they did in LoTR - in what was by far the worst and most idiotic aspect of the whole trilogy.

In the movie we saw lots of plants moving and pretty fast. Not just those Venus Fly Trap plants that Scully played with but also the fast-gorwing.moving roots the enveloped the dying Sigourney Weaver.

But, we're digressing Zos, even a slow moving tree root might be able to move plenty fast enought to snare an ugly foot-soldier trapped in some boggy quicksand. In my mind I was actually thinking about the kind of that Star Wars vat scene (but more slow moving). Would have been great to see them die slowly.

All of which to say is that if Cameron had wanted to support the idea that Nature can fight back on its own and that humans don't always have to resort to savagery, terrorism or carpet bombing then he could have done it and done it with style - perhaps adding a little more cuedos to the story/message of the movie.

He just didn't. And I'm not saying he should have, just that he didn't. =D>

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:04 pm 
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But X.. you seem to be missing that point that Pandora *did* fight back, as an ecosystem.

Why put huge amounts of effort into reversing water flow and massively changing osmotic potentials (at serious harm to the plant life doing it) when you can just mobilise your fauna which are perfectly capable of demolishing the opposition?

It's simply a question of efficiency, from my perspective as a scientist. I love your ideas of the planet fighting back geologically... but it's just not as efficient.

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:17 pm 
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Ebon Hawk wrote:
But X.. you seem to be missing that point that Pandora *did* fight back, as an ecosystem.

I'm not. My only point being that Cameron is implying, intentionaly or not, that fighting fire with fire is the only option. If he had wanted to do the opposite he could have done. That's not missing a point, that's stating an opinion.

I still maintain he's missed a beat by not looking for alternative to his somewhat one-dimensional action-packed finale that he nearly always chooses for his movies - as fun and brilliantly executed as the invariably are.

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:45 pm 
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ah, but it's not only the commercially expedient solution, it's also the most ecologically efficient one.

If he'd had the terrain and geology fight back I'd have been left wondering why the ecosystem hadn't simply mobilised the large numbers of incredibly strong and effective predators it had on hand :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:20 pm 
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Ebon Hawk wrote:
....If he'd had the terrain and geology fight back I'd have been left wondering why the ecosystem hadn't simply mobilised the large numbers of incredibly strong and effective predators it had on hand :wink:

That's true. Sounds like you're finally agreeing with Mess and co; that the story isn't perfect. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:05 am 
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The plot is the weakest point of the movie. I found nothing special about the scenario as it was simple, straight & predictable. Some issues were overly described or shown, in my opinion, whereas some issues were explained quickly with little detail. For instance, we easily accept Scully's becoming a Toruk Makto at his first attempt? Which is something so difficult, only achieved by a very few (maybe one only) in Navi's history? I mentioned many points like this in the plot in my previous messages; while this kind of issues does not disturb me for other movies it does for Avatar, because the movie tries its hardest to be realistic in every aspect.

Ok, Avatar is the best selling movie now, however, this does not make it the best movie. I for one went to see the movie twice in a cinema just to be able experience that amazing feeling of Pandora once again, as many of my friends did as well. I'm sure most of the viewers did the same and this may have a huge effect on ticket sales.

As I said before, I have nothing against Avatar. I accepted that it is a technical masterpiece from day 1 of this discussion. However, considering the movie a masterpiece as a whole is a little bit too much for me. That's all...

NB: Just to make it clear, as X might have some doubts about it, I've never considered Starwars a masterpiece, nor tried to compare Avatar with Starwars. However, there's one masterpiece in the last decade in terms of plot, FX, characters, philosophy, twists and unforgetable scenes. I'm sure you know which movie I mean :)...

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:28 am 
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MrX wrote:
Ebon Hawk wrote:
....If he'd had the terrain and geology fight back I'd have been left wondering why the ecosystem hadn't simply mobilised the large numbers of incredibly strong and effective predators it had on hand :wink:

That's true. Sounds like you're finally agreeing with Mess and co; that the story isn't perfect. :wink:


Ah.. I've never been the one claiming the story was perfect :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:25 am 
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Welcome back to the fray, Blast! :)

Blastor wrote:
For instance, we easily accept Scully's becoming a Toruk Makto at his first attempt? Which is something so difficult, only achieved by a very few (maybe one only) in Navi's history?

I can think of a few things from the top of my head:
- A failed attempt on the whole thing would almost certainly mean death.
- Even if it didn't, a montage of several failed attempts would have done nothing for the story and killed the pace of the film. This is not a documentary on Pandoran wildlife, it is supposed to entertain people! ;)
- The movie is already close to 3 hours long.
- Eywa had plans for Jake - she probably helped, as maybe she did with the other 4 in the past.


Blastor wrote:
Ok, Avatar is the best selling movie now, however, this does not make it the best movie.

I don't think there is "the best movie" really - but in terms of epic SciFi it is without a doubt the best as far as I am concerned.


Blastor wrote:
Just to make it clear, as X might have some doubts about it, I've never considered Starwars a masterpiece, nor tried to compare Avatar with Starwars.

I think I was the one who brought this up - since Avatar is clearly (and this is agreed upon by many) the StarWars of this generation. I have no doubt that it has changed the Science Fiction genre radically and forever and I know people will look back at it one day as they do at StarWars now. :)

And whoever said that a masterpiece had to be perfect? There is no such thing as a perfect film, book or painting. :)
But we already agreed to disagree on this point.


Blastor wrote:
However, there's one masterpiece in the last decade in terms of plot, FX, characters, philosophy, twists and unforgetable scenes. I'm sure you know which movie I mean :)...

In the last decade ...? Nothing comes to mind that would not show the same amount of "flaws" if put under the same kind of scrutiny. :D


Zos

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:22 pm 
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Zoser wrote:
Blastor wrote:
However, there's one masterpiece in the last decade in terms of plot, FX, characters, philosophy, twists and unforgetable scenes. I'm sure you know which movie I mean :)...

In the last decade ...? Nothing comes to mind that would not show the same amount of "flaws" if put under the same kind of scrutiny. :D


Yup Blast. Spill the beans. Would love to know what you think. Star Trek doesn't count. Or maybe it does? In the last decade?

My personal favourites of any category but especially sci-fi are Ridley Scott's Alien (1) and BladeRunner (2), closely followed by the first Terminator (now showing it's age) but even T2 was collosal. Back to the Future also remains one of my all-time favourites and near-perfect cinema (but for a younger more juvenile mind: hey that's me!) :)

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Last edited by MrX on Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:46 pm 
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Alien certainly is absolutely superb... if I was picking a 'perfect' sci-fi movie it would be one of the few candidates...

I too am curious as to which film Blast is referring.

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:09 pm 
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Quote:
- Even if it didn't, a montage of several failed attempts would have done nothing for the story and killed the pace of the film. This is not a documentary on Pandoran wildlife, it is supposed to entertain people!
- The movie is already close to 3 hours long.

Let's agree on 5 more minutes for old times sake Zos, I assume 3hrs and 5min wouldn't hurt the movie that much :) and as for the quote about the movie being not a documentary on Pandora, all I say is please...

Quote:
I don't think there is "the best movie" really - but in terms of epic SciFi it is without a doubt the best as far as I am concerned.

I appreciate you considering Avatar as the best sci-fi movie so far, and I respect that.

Quote:
I think I was the one who brought this up - since Avatar is clearly (and this is agreed upon by many) the StarWars of this generation. I have no doubt that it has changed the Science Fiction genre radically and forever and I know people will look back at it one day as they do at StarWars now.

As my response to your previous quote I respect if this is what you think. However, please let's not add quotes like "as agreed by many" etc. and try to solidify a view with subjective assumptions. What you think alone is already enough for me Zos...

I think the masterpiece of the last decade is definitively Matrix. This requires another thread for discussion but I can't forget how I was shocked & amazed when Morpheus said "Welcome to the real world" to Neo. That line just changed my perception of the movie from regular action to something a lot higher since I had no idea about the plot when I went to see it. The movie describes reincarnation technologically, it also integrates non-technological things like monsters, ghosts, oracles, even deja-vus beatifully into its world. Each character is unique and equally important: Neo, Morpheus, Trinity, Agent Smith all having different fan base. I remember rewinding the Architect's speech to Neo countless times and try to understand what he meant :) as everyone that I discussed, friends, family etc., had different views. On top of all this, great FXs, music, action scenes...

If you ask me, Matrix is Star Wars of this generation, but this is my view and it doesn't have to be agreed by many. I can compare Matrix with Star Wars as they're similar to each other, but I cannot compare Avatar with Star Wars, not because it's not worthy enough but I cannot simply put it into that genre.

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:29 am 
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Hi there,

Blastor wrote:
Let's agree on 5 more minutes for old times sake Zos, I assume 3hrs and 5min wouldn't hurt the movie that much :) and as for the quote about the movie being not a documentary on Pandora, all I say is please...

I am not sure if these five minutes would really do any good to the pacing of the film - it would be either an action sequence or something comical (blue kitty keeps falling from the sky), neither of which would be appropriate after the tragedy that has just occurred. In a documentary this would have been necessary, here it would IMHO just have been unnecessary ballast.

Blastor wrote:
I appreciate you considering Avatar as the best sci-fi movie so far, and I respect that.

I said best epic sci-fi - if we are talking about realistic sci-fi, 2001 is IMHO still unmatched and stands head and shoulders above its peers. :)

Blastor wrote:
However, please let's not add quotes like "as agreed by many" etc. and try to solidify a view with subjective assumptions.

It is not a subjective assumption if it can be proven - and it can: just google "Avatar" AND "Star Wars of our generation" and you find tons of hits. So I'm afraid I cannot concede your point here - I was talking facts. :)

But it is true that for a discussion as this, other people's opinions are not very useful - it seems to me that what we have here is more a difference in personal preference than anything else.

Blastor wrote:
I think the masterpiece of the last decade is definitively Matrix.

I fully agree with regards to the first Matrix film, it was a masterpiece indeed - but 2 was average at best and the less said about 3, the better. Clear case of "there can be only one", as far as I am concerned. *g*

But yes, this would probably require a separate discussion.

Blastor wrote:
If you ask me, Matrix is Star Wars of this generation, but this is my view and it doesn't have to be agreed by many.

For me, Matrix (1!) was the milestone before Avatar, the last film to radically change Sci-Fi and indeed the whole wider action film genre. It also blew me away - and it explained a great many things about the world - I always knew that my boss at the time was just a crazed computer virus! :D

Cheers
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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 am 
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Blastor wrote:
If you ask me, Matrix is Star Wars of this generation, but this is my view and it doesn't have to be agreed by many. I can compare Matrix with Star Wars as they're similar to each other, but I cannot compare Avatar with Star Wars, not because it's not worthy enough but I cannot simply put it into that genre.

That's an interesting one Blast. I think I only ever saw The Matrix once and liked it but wasn't totally amazed by it. I may well have watched in a drunken blur on a DVD though - so must watch that again on BluRay.

Interesting ratings on LoveFilm about The Matrix: http://www.lovefilm.com/film/The-Matrix/1759/

22,000+ out of 76,000+ thought the movie a "five star" movie. That's circa 28% and gives The Matrix four official stars.

On the same site 1,100+ members out of 2,100+ total voted Avatar a "five star" movie. That's 52% and 4.5 official stars.

Wants me to find out which movie has the highest percentage of five star votes. Interestingly enough 2001 A Space Odyssey, one of my other alltime fav movies (although dating fast, but not in terms of effects) only garners 3.5 official stars with just 18% of users rating it five stars (5,400+ out of 29,300 votes). 2001 is interesting in that is far and away an abolute masterpiece (for its age, scope, invention, amazing scenes and a 101 other reasons) but Avatar (and StarWars) sure pack a lot my entertainment pucnh for the money.

PS Blast: The Matrix (1999) is now over ten years old! MsX was -7 when that came out - so hardly qualifies for "this generation" :D

EDIT: Somewhat annoyingly Star Wars isn’t listed separately on the site but the trilogy discset: http://www.lovefilm.com/film/Star-Wars-Trilogy/23748/ gets “four star” rating (and 25,000+ 5 star votes out of 74,000+ votes cast). That’s just 34% folks, leaving Avatar the clear winner again (not that I had would have expected that). Alien does slightly worse on LoveFilm and so does Blade Runner but both make four stars overall.

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:19 am 
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I leave you lot alone for 2 minutes and war brakes out sheesh

First of X take a look at your figures 22,000+ out of 76,000+ for the matrix compared to 1,100+ members out of 2,100 for Avatar that says a lot more than the percentages 76000 people could be bothered voting for the matrix while only 2100 could be bothered for Avatar that's a massive difference and i think says a lot for the matrices appeal to movie goers.

Interestingly both films also advanced film technology a fair bit and both have a large cult following what will be interesting to see is if in 11 years Avatar will have made as much of a lasting impression as the matrix has (matrix was referenced in law and order UK of all places :shock: ) I suspect avatar wont because as breathtaking as the tech used it was not so far ahead of the curve or so attention grabbing as that used within the matrix. I mean fully animated actors are nothing new the've existed in live action films for years from the likes of roger rabbit to golum (on a side note i find golum a far more substantial character than any of the Na'vi).

On the why didn't the planet just attack the humans with moving trees and what not i think your getting the wrong end of the stick. much of the fast moving plants we seen in the film are comparable to real life plants and i would suspect like there real life counterparts work on a system of biological springs and muscle there capable of a single movement but not something as complex as going for a walk. (also please note the walking trees in LoTR were not trees) the exception to this being the strange rute/vines that grew from the world tree but even there rapid growth is not beyond the realms of nature (try sticking some seeds in a darkened room and see how quickly they grow tho it wont be as fast as in the film). Also i don't think Pandora is intelligent well at least not like a human (or Na'vi) is its more like a presence maybe even the Internet it only reacted to the humans after jake communed with it because IMO he identified the humans as a threat this idea of threat was then passed on thru the network to all the creatures of Pandora and they reacted (like you sending a email saying watch out for bob in accounts he steels pens and every one at your work hiding there pens from him). tho saying that there is still the possibility (a pretty high one at that) of there being a intelligence within the network possibly as some form of combined/group/hive mind or perhaps some other species that has not been seen (or at least not recognised because those glowie trees are dam suspicious)

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:57 am 
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Mess wrote:
I leave you lot alone for 2 minutes and war brakes out sheesh

You are just annoyed you missed the fun ... :D


Mess wrote:
[...]76000 people could be bothered voting for the matrix while only 2100 could be bothered for Avatar that's a massive difference and i think says a lot for the matrices appeal to movie goers.

Nope, all it says is that Matrix has been around for 11 years already, so it was considerably longer available to vote for. :D

Mess wrote:
Interestingly both films also advanced film technology a fair bit and both have a large cult following what will be interesting to see is if in 11 years Avatar will have made as much of a lasting impression as the matrix has

So I have to wait 11 years before I can say "toldya"? Ah well, life isn't fair! :D


Zos

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:35 am 
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Zoser wrote:

Mess wrote:
[...]76000 people could be bothered voting for the matrix while only 2100 could be bothered for Avatar that's a massive difference and i think says a lot for the matrices appeal to movie goers.

Nope, all it says is that Matrix has been around for 11 years already, so it was considerably longer available to vote for. :D


while there is that i would have expected Avatar to have more votes than it has currently has

Quote:
Mess wrote:
Interestingly both films also advanced film technology a fair bit and both have a large cult following what will be interesting to see is if in 11 years Avatar will have made as much of a lasting impression as the matrix has

So I have to wait 11 years before I can say "toldya"? Ah well, life isn't fair! :D


actually probably more like 6 months if not less as there were matrix like films being fired out pretty quick and directors were using slow mo and bullet time every opportunity they could. Of course Im not entirely convinced that avatar made as huge/notecable leaps in tech all its really done is improved on what was already there

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