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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:58 am 
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Welceom back Mess!!!! :D
Mess wrote:
while there is that i would have expected Avatar to have more votes than it has currently has

It's the quality not the quantity Mess. The LoveFilm is great in that they vote pretty quickly against movies they dislike as well as like and the key fact is that 52% of them gave it five stars - more than any other movie I've seen on there. Obvioulsy it's not yet out on DVD/Blu-ray which is what the site is mostly used for so it will be interesting to see how this develops.

Does remind me that The Matrix wasn't that popular with the critics when first released and that Cameron's movies have hardly ever been popular with the critics either. Some movies seem to have a deeper more elusive lure with the cinema-going public. Star Wars, Alien, Titanic, Blade Runner and many other modern classics were never hailed by the critics but grew in fan-base over time. I do agree that it will be interesting to see how Avatar fairs over the coming years.

Yay! We can be on for another 10 years to see how this pans out! :D

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:28 pm 
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If you check IMDB, which to me is the slightly more important indicator, Avatar has received 196,531 votes in the couple of months it exists, while Matrix managed not even double with 356,392 votes in 11 years.

Neither is an indicator for quality and influence though, we will just have to see what happens. :)

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:57 pm 
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Pah, I don't need numbers to like a movie more or less. My best movie is actually Confessions of a Shopaholic, and I don't care if it gets less vote :)...

What I'm more worried about is that I'll have to keep this forum active for 10 more years to see who's right about Avatar :)...

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:23 pm 
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MrX wrote:
Blade Runner


now there's a classic sci fi movie

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:52 am 
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Technically it is not sci-fi but cyberpunk - it pretty much is the genre-defining film for that ... :D

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:21 am 
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Zoser wrote:
Technically it is not sci-fi but cyberpunk - it pretty much is the genre-defining film for that ... :D

Errr ... No.

"A super Philip K Dick story about a superdick searching for rebellious replicants translates here into a violent visual eye-popper, based in a futuristic Los Angeles, which set the acid rain/neon-drenched metropolis design standard for eighties sci-fi. As influential as 2001: a Space Odyssey and Star Wars, and as thought-provoking as the former Kubrick classic, Ridley Scott's atmospheric downer is a compelling noir thriller that pleads for harmony between man and machine. Harrison Ford stars as the former cop assigned to track down android Rutger Hauer and his three associates. Hauer gives an exceptional performance as the blond humanoid who, like the others, has been implanted with memories of a nonexistent youth. This Director's Cut, which drops Ford's voice-over, actually adds more depth to the 1982 original, so the full masterpiece can shine through. A masterpiece of recent cinema." Lovefilm.

"The Greatest Sci Fi Film Ever Made. "Bladerunner" is a film that shaped the way I think. There are not many films you can say that about. Based on a novel by Philip K. Dick called 'Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep?'" LoveFilm Reviewer.

From Wikipedia:
"Science fiction is a genre of fiction. It differs from fantasy in that, within the context of the story, its imaginary elements are largely possible within scientifically established or scientifically postulated laws of nature (though some elements in a story might still be pure imaginative speculation). Exploring the consequences of such differences is the traditional purpose of science fiction, making it a "literature of ideas".[1] Science fiction is largely based on writing rationally about alternative possibilities.[2] The settings for science fiction are often contrary to known reality."

And:
"The Cyberpunk genre emerged in the early 1980s; its the name combining "cybernetics" and "punk",[50] and was first coined by author Bruce Bethke in his 1980 short story "Cyberpunk".[51] The time frame is usually near-future and the settings are often dystopian (characterized by misery). Common themes in cyberpunk include advances in information technology and especially the Internet (visually abstracted as cyberspace), artificial intelligence and prosthetics and post-democratic societal control where corporations have more influence than governments. Nihilism, post-modernism, and film noir techniques are common elements, and the protagonists may be disaffected or reluctant anti-heroes. Noteworthy authors in this genre are William Gibson, Bruce Sterling, Neal Stephenson, and Pat Cadigan. James O'Ehley has called the 1982 film Blade Runner a definitive example of the cyberpunk visual style." Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sci-fi .

Clearly Cyberpunk is a child of the sci-fi genre. It would be like arguing that Man isn't a primate. :wink:

X

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:26 am 
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Bah, in this case I was just more precise is all. :D

And it makes it easier for me, because I cannot agree that Blade Runner is the best SciFi ever - but it certainly is the best Cyberpunk film.

Best SciFi is shared between 2001 and Avatar now, as far as I am concerned - where the older film is higher quality but the newer one is more entertaining. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:54 am 
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Zoser wrote:
Bah, in this case I was just more precise is all. :D

Zos, you said that "it is not sci-fi". :oops:

After reviewing all the details again I'm buying the 5 disc special US import edition in 1080p Blu-ray hi-def. It includes "... the new version of the film (more later on that), the original cinema version (narrated), the director's cut (ironic title now), the criterion edition and the workprint edition. If you don't know what the latter two are then please Google it. Suffice it to say that there are no other versions of BladeRunner and to have them all in a single set in 1080p is beyond amazing! There's also a 3 hour documentary on the history and making of the film(s).

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Blade-Runner-Bl ... 069&sr=1-2

I can't wait to watch this again and for the first time in HD. I would say, on re-reflection that this probably is the greatest sci-fi movie of all time. Mostly for me in that it includes possibly two of the greatest, most moving scenes ever set to celluloid:

1) Harrinson Ford (Deckard's) interview with the replicant girl (Rachael) at the Tyrell Corporation (where we discover she isn't human and doesn't know it), great scene, casting, direction, invention and awe. Who couldn't help but fall in love with that "girl"?

2) The final scene when the replicant leader Roy Battey finaly concedes that he will 'die' even though he's never lived. I watched that clip hundreds of times and it brings tears to my eyes now even thinking about. Rutger Hauer apparently wrote those words himself.

The third classic scene, often copied to this day in so many other sci-fi flicks is the voice controlled enlargement of the photos in his apartment.

What else is there to love in this movie? The most beautiful and haunting soundtrack of any movie ever (by Vangelis), the best-ever emotional ending to a movie ever with the lingering haunting question of "Is it better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all?”

Thanks Zos. But stop. This week is costing me a fortune!

X

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:52 am 
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Have to admit, I have to disagree with Zos on Blade Runner being cyberpunk. It doesn't feel cyberpunk to me at all.

Sure it's grimy and dirty, but it's lacking the fusion of organic and inorganic which is a mainstay of cyberpunk from my perspective (and before you tell me that the Nexus series are exactly that I disagree.. they are synthetic, not cyborgs).

I think you are confusing these as a lot of cyberpunk shares a number of characteristics with Blade Runner (the gritty, grimy world, frequently the blend of western and eastern we see in the food, street signs and even language use)... but to be honest I feel Blade Runner was the precursor for a lot of that.

I can't really put my finger on what feels wrong with the statement 'Blade Runner is cyberpunk', but it feels deeply wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:44 pm 
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First of X i hate you for bringing that disk set to my atention :D

As to is bladerunner cyberpunk or not i would say it is or atleast it was cyberpunk has rapidly evolved over the last few years to the point that bladerunner is relativly tame it but it dose pose many of teh same questions that other cyberpunk films try to (and dose it better really) in that it looks at the difinition of what it is to be alive and to be considered human. but its still sci-fi because cyberpunlk is science fiction.

there for you cant discount it because its a subgern of sci-fi because if your going to do that then you have to look at the fact that 2001 and Avatar are not the same type of film 2001 is pretty much a rescinned thriller/horror while avatar is very much in the action catagory of sci-fi.

and if were talking action sci-fi i definetly prefer transformers to avatar because TF makes no attemep to hide its action routes in a overly complex story.

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:59 pm 
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The discussion if BR is or is not cyberpunk is quite OT here, plus I don't think we will come to an agreement! :)

And MESS - did you just compare the monstrosity that is Transformers with Avatar? O.o Them are fightin' words, mate!

*rushes off to get wood for the ritual burning*
;) Zos

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:01 pm 
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Mess wrote:
First of X i hate you for bringing that disk set to my atention :D

Hehe. But it's Zos' fault! He brought up the whole thread! :D

By the way, couldn't a cyberpunk story occur in the past - ruling it non sci-fi? The classic components of cyberpunk including the noir influence. I would tend to agree with Zos, and many, many others Blade Runner was highly influencial in creating this category even if other movies (The Matrix?) having become even more cyberpunk-like than Blade Runner itself.

I'm not pretenting to know anything at all about cyberpunk movies (or books/comics) so it's an honest question - and thanks for bringing it up Ebon.

X

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:04 pm 
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Maybe we should move Blade Runner to another thread? Heck, we are all admins here and we let this thread go miles OT ... *g*

I would try myself, but I am still not very good with the thread management tools on this page. ;)

Zos

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:14 pm 
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Ebon Hawk wrote:
Sure it's grimy and dirty, but it's lacking the fusion of organic and inorganic which is a mainstay of cyberpunk from my perspective (and before you tell me that the Nexus series are exactly that I disagree.. they are synthetic, not cyborgs).

By the way Ebon, is that some semi-official definition of cyberpunk?

I'm also trying to recall if the movie explains exactly how the Nexus 6 replicants were made. I didn't get the impression they were wholely electronic (and can't see how they could have been) but is that even how you would define 'synthetic'?

I guess my synthetic underpants would rule that out ( :D ) but what kind of source/inspiration are you recalling for this Ebon?

And Zos, I kind of agree with you in Transformers v Avatar - except the Transformer movies are incredibly well made and entertaining - something I wouldn't personally look down on too much. Entertainment being an art form all of its own.

I guess classic sci-fi often has that extra emotional depth the belies it's 'entertainment only' predudices - which rules out movies like Transformers as being proper sci-fi and just, only just includes movies like Avatar (being more like fantasy)?

Doris Lessing anyone?

EDIT: Back OT Zos. :D

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:22 pm 
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MrX wrote:
And Zos, I kind of agree with you in Transformers v Avatar - except the Transformer movies are incredibly well made and entertaining - something I wouldn't personally look down on too much. Entertainment being an art form all of its own.


We will have to agree to disagree on the "well-made" bit here, X. I recently watchted TF1 together with AP and it was only entertaining because both of us spent the entire running time mocking it mercilessly. :D

Zos

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:41 pm 
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Zoser wrote:
We will have to agree to disagree on the "well-made" bit here, X. I recently watchted TF1 together with AP and it was only entertaining because both of us spent the entire running time mocking it mercilessly. :D

Well it is "just" a kids a movie Zos. Do you and AP also watch Tom & Jerry movies to mock them? :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:44 pm 
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Sorry, that is not an argument I can accept - there are a large number of intelligent films made for children, so the target audience is not an excuse for lack of skill on the side of the director. Bay simply "directs" explosions interrupted by snippets of plot-like devices.

Anyway, back to Avatar! :D

Zos

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:58 pm 
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Zoser wrote:
[xxx] simply "directs" [yyy] interrupted by snippets of plot-like devices. Anyway, back to Avatar!

Yup. That sounds like Avatar to me. :D

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:01 pm 
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I am not even going to comment ... :D

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:09 pm 
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Zoser wrote:
Bay simply "directs" explosions interrupted by snippets of plot-like devices.


This of course is only my own opinion and will hopefully not offend any M.B. fans out there. My problem is that his apparent lack of interest in his actors and therefore characters really annoys me these days.

Zos

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:30 pm 
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MrX wrote:
Mess wrote:
First of X i hate you for bringing that disk set to my atention :D

Hehe. But it's Zos' fault! He brought up the whole thread! :D

By the way, couldn't a cyberpunk story occur in the past - ruling it non sci-fi? The classic components of cyberpunk including the noir influence. I would tend to agree with Zos, and many, many others Blade Runner was highly influencial in creating this category even if other movies (The Matrix?) having become even more cyberpunk-like than Blade Runner itself.

I'm not pretenting to know anything at all about cyberpunk movies (or books/comics) so it's an honest question - and thanks for bringing it up Ebon.

X


Yes/no maybe kind of is the answer to that one while cyberpunk probably couldn't, cyberpunk its self has sub genres such as clock-punk and steam punk both of which tend to happen in the past normally some kind of Victorian style era tho elements of both can appear further back but the Victorian era is the norm

Oh and a wiki article to further explain http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk :D

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:46 pm 
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Zoser wrote:
And MESS - did you just compare the monstrosity that is Transformers with Avatar? O.o Them are fightin' words, mate!


Yes yes i did because to my mind there both very similar films perhaps not in story but in both rely on cutting edge special effects to achieve there ends remove those special effects and you have something that's not really all that original which is the crux of my problem with the "popularity" and supposid "greatness" that is avatar because much of that hype is on the back of the SFX and not the story. You need only read the initial reviews especially those written by the general public to realise that when they say the film was mind blowing what in fact they really mean is that the SFX was mind blowing because that's the one thing they mention over and over they don't bring up the fact that its a comment on human nature and our seeming desire to strip mine everything we come across. Nope they go on about how life like the Na'Vi were or how real the jungle seemed.

In terms of story Avatar is just a Sci-fi coating on a very old idea and i truly believe had it not had that sci-fi coating it would have flopped.

At Least with transformers there is no claim at high brow its 135 mins of lets blow crap up and get as many unnecessary shots of Megan Fox as we can in essence its the perfect action pop corn muncher no need to engage brain no need to consider motifs we have good guys bad guys and explosions :twisted: and not a hint of weirdtreehugingcatpeoplelove

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:13 am 
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OK, now you have done it ... :D

I cannot see any real parallels between Avatar and TF to be honest, and here are just some of the reasons:

1) To me TF is just mindless action with a bit of "plot" to stop the explosions from bumping into each other while Avatar tells a story, however simple it may be.

2) In TF, characters are one-dimensional and only exist as a reason for the action to happen, in Avatar they feel very much alive, they have motivations you can understand.
For example: where Megatron is just evil because he is evil, Colonel Quaritch is simply doing his job and he is looking out for his own. He believes in his mission and the benefit it has for his race.

2a) Because the characters never really come to life, you don't really care about them. Heck, Megatron could have stepped on Sam and I would probably have cheered. I for one cared more for the Na'vi extras than I did for the leading characters in TF - and if a computer-generated character is more alive than a living and breathing actor, something is wrong with the direction.

3) Avatar has many layers, it also spends considerably more time showing the Na'vi and the world they live in than it does on people shooting each other.

4) TF is - as has been pointed out already here and in other forums and reviews "just a kids film" without any real meaning, which is not true for Avatar.

5) What little plot there is in TF is riddled with plot-holes you could walk Megatron and Optimus through. "Hmmm, we have this cube that all the evil robots are after - best we hide it in the middle of a city, so we can endanger as many lives as possible. Makes sense ..."

I could go on - but the bottom line is that IMHO the two films have very little in common, apart from both being financially very successful and that they both can be classified as SciFi. ;)

Zos

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:58 am 
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and the award for longest thread that i cba to read goes to....
*drum role*




AVATAR!!!! *que cheesy music and lots of cheering and clapping*

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:35 pm 
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Zoser wrote:
OK, now you have done it ... :D

I cannot see any real parallels between Avatar and TF to be honest, and here are just some of the reasons:

1) To me TF is just mindless action with a bit of "plot" to stop the explosions from bumping into each other while Avatar tells a story, however simple it may be.

All i can say is Mmmmmmmmmmmmm mindless Action well that and i would prefer mindless action over what avatar offered

2) In TF, characters are one-dimensional and only exist as a reason for the action to happen, in Avatar they feel very much alive, they have motivations you can understand.
For example: where Megatron is just evil because he is evil, Colonel Quaritch is simply doing his job and he is looking out for his own. He believes in his mission and the benefit it has for his race.

funny i see megatron and the Colonel as very similar characters both veiw another species as beneath them (humans for megs and Na'vi for Quaritch) and both go to any lengths to get what they want megs also has a little of the director guy mixed in as he wanted earth for a reason.


2a) Because the characters never really come to life, you don't really care about them. Heck, Megatron could have stepped on Sam and I would probably have cheered. I for one cared more for the Na'vi extras than I did for the leading characters in TF - and if a computer-generated character is more alive than a living and breathing actor, something is wrong with the direction.

That's a very personal view i liked the characters in TF and found them probably just as 1 dimensional as those in Avatar (kick as pilot chick stands out as dose complete bastard army guy)

3) Avatar has many layers, it also spends considerably more time showing the Na'vi and the world they live in than it does on people shooting each other.

Layer? perhaps if you consider a love plot, a coming to understand the aliens plot and the lets blow stuff up plot layers it was no deeper than any other recent blockbuster it just happened to do a really good job of sugar coating everything

4) TF is - as has been pointed out already here and in other forums and reviews "just a kids film" without any real meaning, which is not true for Avatar.

Did you not argue that there are some really good kids films?

5) What little plot there is in TF is riddled with plot-holes you could walk Megatron and Optimus through. "Hmmm, we have this cube that all the evil robots are after - best we hide it in the middle of a city, so we can endanger as many lives as possible. Makes sense ..."

As much sence as the living USB ports every animal on pandora has and teh fact the Avatars have it as well and it works? Or the fact that the tatics used by the humans were down right stupid? or the fact that the Na'Vi only have 4 limbs? theres plenty plot holes in Avatar.

I could go on - but the bottom line is that IMHO the two films have very little in common, apart from both being financially very successful and that they both can be classified as SciFi. ;)

Zos

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:54 am 
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Hi,

I think we can stop this here, there is no way we can ever agree on this topic, so all we do is wasting time and forum space. Seems we cannot even agree what a plot-hole is and what is not ... :)

Zos

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:49 am 
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I have to get this one in though: :D

It would seem that the jury of the Golden Raspberry Awards hold the Transformers franchise in equally high regard as I do ... it scooped the awards for Worst Film, Worst Director and Worst Screenplay. Way to go, Mr. Bay!

And yes, Avatar only won 4 Oscars - but not having seen "The Hurt Locker", I cannot say if I am sad about it - maybe the winner is indeed better. :)

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:36 pm 
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Avatar won Art Direction, Cinematography & Visual Effects oscars as far as I'm aware of, and these categories are the ones I mentioned from day 1 as the strong points of the film, nothing else :)...

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:07 pm 
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True - and I cannot even say that it was more deserving in the categories it didn't win in, because I have not and will not see the "Hurt Locker". So I cannot judge.

Anyway, I am sure that Cameron will be able to console himself with now "only" having made the two most successful films in history ... :)

Zos

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 Post subject: Re: You WILL believe a blue kitty can fly! (Cameron's Avatar)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:22 pm 
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He's 'kinda' made the two most successful films in history...

inflation adjusted he's actually not even close to the top of the list (I have a feeling that's Gone with the Wind), but on raw currency he's at the top.

Just to put that out there :wink:

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